|
CentOS in the News : It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System
|
|
Posted by hughesjr on 2006/3/24 16:50:00 (511410 reads)
|
OR ... why every city council needs at least one geek 
Background: This a default test page that shows up after an install of CentOS. It is slightly different between the 3 centos versions ... here is an example:
http://mirror.centos.org/mirrorscripts/noindex_new.html
Now, the rest of this story is true ... hard to believe, but true none the less. I will just post the raw e-mails (email addresses removed) and let you see a day in the life of the CentOS Team
We want to make it clear that the CentOS team does not support sending derogatory e-mails to anyone. Thank you for your understanding.
Thu, 23 Mar 2006 00:52:58 +0000 (Wed, 18:52 CST)
Jerry A. Taylor submitted the following Information:
Email xxxxxxx
Company City of Tuttle
Location Oklahoma
Comments
Who gave you permission to invade my website and block me and anyone else from accessing it???
Please remove your software immediately before I report it to government officials!!
I am the City Manager of Tuttle, Oklahoma.
-----------------------------------------------
From: Johnny Hughes
To: Jerry A. Taylor
Subject: Re: www.centos.org - Contact Us Form
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 18:59:18 -0600
I feel sorry for your city.
CentOS is an operating system. It is probably installed on the computer
that runs your website.
We hope you are happy with it, since we produced it for free and you are
able to use it without paying us ... and are even threatening to have us
arrested for providing to you free of charge.
Please contact someone who does IT for you and show them the page so
that they can configure your apache webserver correctly.
Thanks,
Johnny Hughes,
CentOS 4 Lead Developer
-----------------------------------------------
From: Jerry A. Taylor
To: CentOS Web Site
Subject: www.centos.org - Contact Us Form
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 18:58:31 +0000 (12:58 CST)
Jerry A. Taylor submitted the following Information:
Email xxxxx
Company City of Tuttle
Location Oklahoma
Comments
Get this web site off my home page!!!!!
It is blocking access to my website!!!!~!
-----------------------------------------------
From: Johnny Hughes
To: Jerry A. Taylor
Subject: Re: www.centos.org - Contact Us Form
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 13:45:37 -0600
It is not a website ... it is the operating system.
I would be glad to help you configure your webserver.
Do you own the machine that your web site is on, or is it at a hosting
provider.
If it is at a provider, they need to properly configure their webserver.
If it is on your machine, your apache needs to be properly configured.
I am assuming that you are seeing a page that looks like this:
http://centos.hughesjr.com/testing/noindex_new.html
If so, it tells you exactly what needs to be done to fix the problem.
If your server is at a provider location, they should be able to fix it
if you tell them about the issue.
We didn't DO ANYTHING ... that is what the default apache setup looks
like if you are running our operating system (CentOS). So how your
configuration file has been replaced by the default one ... that is not
something that we can do, it is something that might have been done by
the administrator of the machine.
IF you are not sending these e-mails via the CentOS.org homepage, please
reply to this e-mail so that I will know that.
Thanks,
Johnny Hughes
CentOS-4 Lead Developer
-----------------------------------------------
From: Jerry.Taylor
To: Johnny Hughes
Subject: Re: www.centos.org - Contact Us Form
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 13:54:24 -0600
I do not want this software!!!! This is the City of Tuttle, Oklahoma. Get rid of this software!!!!!
Second notice!
-----------------------------------------------
From: Jerry.Taylor
To: Johnny Hughes
Subject: Re: www.centos.org - Contact Us Form
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 13:58:23 -0600
Johnny,
Unless this software is removed I will file a complaint with the FBI.
-----------------------------------------------
From: Johnny Hughes
To: Jerry.Taylor
Subject: Re: www.centos.org - Contact Us Form
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 14:18:06 -0600
Jerry,
I/We didn't install any software ... I am trying to tell you that.
I am asking you as nicely as I possible can to explain what the problem is.
I have tried to explain to you what CentOS is.
It is an operating system ... a version of linux.
It does not install itself ... it requires someone to install it.
If you will not let me help you, or at least talk to someone who knows
what Linux is, then you will look like an idiot.
Your choice.
Thanks,
Johnny Hughes
-----------------------------------------------
From: Johnny Hughes
To: Jerry.Taylor
Subject: Re: www.centos.org - Contact Us Form
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 14:46:40 -0600
Mr. Taylor,
My name is Johnny Hughes, I am a software engineer and I am a developer
of CentOS. I live in Corpus Christi, Texas.
I have been published in several magazines ... here is my latest
article:
http://www.linux-magazine.com/issue/65
http://www.linux-magazine.com/issue/65/CentOS_4.2.pdf
CentOS is a legitimate operating system ... that is what it is. It is
like Microsoft Windows, RedHat Linux, or Apple OSX ... It is not
possible that it was installed without operator action. I have no idea
what you think has happened, nor what has given you the idea that the
CentOS Project is involved in any way.
CentOS is not spyware, it is not spam. It does not take over websites.
If you will not let me help you, find someone you know who is computer
literate and has heard of Linux to look at your problem. I am trying
very, very hard to save you from great embarrassment.
You may certainly call the FBI if you want. I may call some law
enforcement agency or attorney myself if you don't stop throwing around
accusations and stop threatening me without just cause.
Please, for the love of God, either let me help you or talk to a
computer administrator who can help you with your problem.
Thank You,
Johnny Hughes
CentOS-4 Lead Developer
-----------------------------------------------
From: Jerry.Taylor
To: Johnny Hughes
Subject: Re: www.centos.org - Contact Us Form
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 15:15:17 -0600
I have four computers located at City Hall. All of these computers display
the same CentOS page when attempting to bring up Tuttle-ok.gov. Now if your
software is not causing this problem, how does it happen??? No one outside
this building has complained about this problem. This is a block of public
access to a city's website. Remove your software within the next 12 hours or
an official complaint to the FBI is being filed!
Third correspondence to this location.
-----------------------------------------------
From: Jerry.Taylor
To: Johnny Hughes
Subject: Re: www.centos.org - Contact Us Form
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 15:50:33 -0600
Johnny,
This a message to notify you that your webpage has blocked an "Official"
website that is used to provide public information regarding City Council
meetings including notifying the public of the agendas. Failure to provide
the agendas on the City's website is a violation of the open records act of
Oklahoma. You claim no responsibility but the city did not subscribe to your
software and the city did not authorize you to display it when the city's
website is selected.
You have officially been notified and given an opportunity to correct the
situation without legal intervention. The rest is up to you!
Jerry
-----------------------------------------------
From: Johnny Hughes
To: Jerry.Taylor
Cc: mayor of Tuttle
Subject: Re: www.centos.org - Contact Us Form
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 18:34:18 -0600
Mr. Taylor
Stop with the FBI already. If CentOS is on the computers, it was
installed there by someone who controls the computer.
Who installed the operating system on those computers? Who is the
administrator of the computers and have you contacted them?
If the operating system that is installed on the computers is CentOS,
then it was installed by the administrator if the computer.
Are you not understanding what I am writing?
Please talk to the person who controls the computers ... or give me a
name and an e-mail address and I will talk to them.
If someone who is computer literate doesn't take care of this situation
I will be forced to send these ridiculous e-mails to your local media.
I'm sure they will be able to understand what I am trying to tell you.
Please, I have asked you at least 3 times to have your administrator,
the person who installed the operating system on those computers, to
look at them.
Thank you,
Johnny Hughes
-----------------------------------------------
From: Johnny Hughes
To: Jerry.Taylor
Cc: mayor of Tuttle
Subject: Re: www.centos.org - Contact Us Form
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 18:38:46 -0600
We don't display anything ... you have yet to even tell me the name of
the webserver in question.
I am very tired of your threats when you have yet to even show me what
your problem is.
You obviously do not understand what I am trying to tell you, is there
no one on the city council or in your building who understands what an
operating system is.
If you would like me to help the administrator of the computers in
question, I would be happy to. However, we did not install anything,
anywhere.
-----------------------------------------------
From: Jerry.Taylor
To: Johnny Hughes
Subject: Re: www.centos.org - Contact Us Form
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 18:58:24 -0600
Johnny,
I have contacted the City's network administrator wnd he has done nothing to
install your CentOS software. I have contacted our Internet provider and
they know nothing about your software. I am computer literate! I have 22
years in computer systems engineering and operation. Now, can you tell me
how to remove "your software" that you acknowledge you provided free of
charge? I consider this "hacking". I have no fear of the media, in fact I
welcome this publicity.
Just correct this problem and leave this system alone in the future.
Jerry
-----------------------------------------------
From: Johnny Hughes
To: Jerry.Taylor
Cc: mayor of Tuttle
Subject: Re: www.centos.org - Contact Us Form
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 19:08:05 -0600
Mr. Taylor,
Even though I have repeatedly asked you to contact your service provider
or your network administrator, you have persisted to instead harass me.
I have repeatedly offered to help you fix your issue, if you would just
provide me with information. You have chosen neither provide me with
information or contact your hosting provider ... so I decided to see if
I could find some of the information myself.
I found the website that you are having problems with by looking at
http://www.Tuttle-OK.gov/ and I saw an e-mail address of
cityoftuttle.org ... so I went to www.cityoftuttle.org and I see the
problem.
As I tried to explain to you before, that page is displayed when the
webserver in question is not properly configured.
The IP address that is returned from a name lookup of
www.cityoftuttle.org is 65.77.67.7. That is the IP address of your
server.
Doing more research, I have found that the site in question is hosted by
Vidia Communications. If you look at this page
http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph/?host=www.vidiacom.com
you will plainly see that Vidia Communications uses CentOS as the
operating system for their server.
So, though I have told you again and again that you need to contact your
service provider and tell them of your problem, you obviously would
rather threaten me and my group.
Now, for the last time ... contact your web server provider, Vidia
Communications, and tell them that they have a misconfiguration on the
server that they are hosting your website on.
While you are at it, why don't you ask Vidia Communications why it is
that they choose CentOS to host your webserver on.
So you see Mr. Taylor, you ARE using my free operating system to run
your website, you are doing so by choice, it is a configuration error by
the person who choose to install the software and if you would have done
what I asked you to your website would have been up by now.
Let me conclude by saying that it is very hard for me NOT to send this
e-mail and all the other correspondence between you and I to
http://www.tuttletimes.com/
I will not do so, even though I really do want to.
Thank you,
Johnny Hughes
-----------------------------------------------
From: Johnny Hughes
To: Jerry.Taylor
Subject: Re: www.centos.org - Contact Us Form
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 19:20:11 -0600
Mr. Taylor,
If there are other servers besides the one I already found ... If you
provide me the names, I'll be happy to tell you who the provider is for
them as well.
Johnny Hughes
-----------------------------------------------
From: Jerry.Taylor
To: Johnny Hughes
Subject: Re: www.centos.org - Contact Us Form
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 11:36:42 -0600
Johnny,
The problem has been resolved by VIDIA who used to host the City website.
They still provide cable service but do not host the website. The
explanation was that they had a crash and during the rebuild they
reinstalled the software that affected our website.
I am sorry that we had to go through the process and accusations to get the
problem resolved. It could have been resolved a lot quicker if the initial
correspondence with you provided the helpful information that was
transmitted in the last messages. My initial contact with VIDIA disallowed
any knowledge of creating the problem.
Jerry
-----------------------------------------------
From: Johnny Hughes
To: Jerry.Taylor
Subject: Re: www.centos.org - Contact Us Form
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 11:49:15 -0600
Jerry,
I asked time and again for the name of the web server administrator or
the website so that I could help you.
I did the extra research on my own to figure it out for myself when I
was not provided any of that information by you.
I also tried very hard to convince you that the problem had to be caused
on the web server and that CentOS could not possibly be installed by
accident or in anyway take over a website.
You will notice that in my first and second e-mails, I spell out exactly
how to fix the problem and who should be contacted.
Any administrator should have been able to use nslookup, dig and whois
to figure out the problem, which had absolutely nothing to do with
CentOS.
I am glad that you got the problem fixed.
Thanks,
Johnny Hughes
-----------------------------------------------
OK ... so there it is ... in it's entirety. I can't even make this kind of stuff up.
Another day in the life of a Linux Distro
|
|
 
The comments are owned by the poster. We aren't responsible for their content.
| Poster |
Thread |
| thiessendg |
Posted: 2006/3/24 16:33 Updated: 2006/3/24 16:33 |
Newbie   Joined: 2006/3/21 From: NJ, USA Posts: 1 |
 Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System  This is great. I am at the edge of my seat. I hope you continue to post these exchanges. I can't wait to see how this ends... Will Johnny be pursued by the FBI? Will the City of Tuttle disappear, only to be replaced by a generic apache test page? I am surprised he isn't emailing the Apache Tribe and threatening them, too! |
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| lcarrig |
Posted: 2006/4/11 3:21 Updated: 2006/4/11 3:21 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/4/11 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Well this is an excellent example why you do indeed need someone with a clue in terms of how the Web works and why people skills are needed. I was rolling on the floor laughing when Mr. Taylor stated that I had 4 PC's in my office and they all showed the same web page. Thou the Mayor stated that they are going to ignor this I bet they will be sending Mr. Taylor to some people skills training and some computer training. Well I can hope anyways or this will happen again. Cheers; Lori Software Engineer |
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| jaduncan |
Posted: 2006/4/14 7:48 Updated: 2006/4/14 7:48 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/4/14 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System |
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| wuffel |
Posted: 2006/3/24 16:51 Updated: 2006/3/24 16:51 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/24 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System You really did _not_ invent this? How could this *beep* ever manage to tie his shoes...
Keep on doing the right thing[tm] and have a nice weekend,
greetings from germany
wuffel
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| hashinclude |
Posted: 2006/3/24 21:37 Updated: 2006/3/24 21:54 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/24 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Does the phrase "Village Idiot" ring a bell? Maybe you should have asked him to put a "user = id10t" in his Apache config file |
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| OnePingOnly |
Posted: 2006/3/24 22:29 Updated: 2006/3/24 22:29 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/24 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System You know, I took a lot of glee from reading this exchange, but then...I dunno, later I felt bad for the guy. Yeah, he shot from the hip, but I think a lot of the escalation could have been avoided with a little patience and a phone call.
Maybe I'm just outgrowing my IT smugness.
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| cory |
Posted: 2006/3/24 23:16 Updated: 2006/3/24 23:23 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/24 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System I was thinking the same thing up until the part where the guy said:
"I have 22 years in computer systems engineering and operation."
At this point he went from hapless clueless user to smug IT jerk. He didn't help matters by starting threats of legal action from the start and FBI involvement shortly after.
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| hughesjr |
Posted: 2006/3/25 3:20 Updated: 2006/3/25 3:21 |
WebMaster  Joined: 2004/12/5 From: Corpus Christi, Texas, USA Posts: 401 Online! |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System CentOS doesn't have any phones ... and we don't make any money by selling our distro or by selling support contracts. So, who pays the long distance phone calls when we provide that free support as well when people have problems?
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| ringsmose |
Posted: 2006/3/24 22:50 Updated: 2006/3/24 22:50 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/24 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System I don't know, maybe I'm being an a**hole, maybe I just heard a few too many user stories, but I just sent The Tuttle Times the URL for this story along with a little explanation and a URL for the story on el reg ( http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/03/24/tuttle_centos/) .. oh well, if they print it, maybe mr. Taylor will get a hint next time, if they don't, then no harm done.. right? |
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| eeman |
Posted: 2006/3/24 22:52 Updated: 2006/3/24 22:52 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/1/31 From: Posts: 3 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System You not only informed him you were a 3rd party to the event, but did so many times before fixing his problem. You really should send him a bill for $687/hr times 6 hours. When he doesn't pay file suit against him and use his newspapers and these communications as proof that he demanded your consulting services. No faster way to jerk a knot into someone's tail then by doing it to their wallet.
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| rcstilgar |
Posted: 2006/3/25 3:09 Updated: 2006/3/25 3:10 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/25 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Just had to chime in. I went to the Tuttle web page and saw Jerry's pic. He is the city manager and his 22 years apparently came from working as a program manager for E-System, inc. A Raytheon company. Raytheon, as in big Government Contracts, Raytheon. Probably why he started right in with FBI BS. His listed CV states that he has a BS in EE, but goes on to show another BA in Mgt and then an MBA. Jerry was no more in IT then Al Gore. Thanks for making an admins day with this post.
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| pgquiles |
Posted: 2006/3/25 5:59 Updated: 2006/3/25 5:59 |
Newbie Joined: 2005/2/23 From: Posts: 2 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System And people still wonder why so many US jobs are being offshored to India!?
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| C64_Hacker |
Posted: 2006/3/25 6:46 Updated: 2006/3/25 6:50 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/25 From: Posts: 4 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System In defense of this guy,
You are all quick to bash him, and yet you are doing exactly what he did. Both have very limited knowledge of the overall facts (one person as to what an OS is, and the group as to who the person is) and you're automatically drawing negative conclusions. Yeah the guy was a jerk in his correspondence, but we've all had times (and if you haven't, then get off the computer and live life a little ya basement dwelling loser) where we ended up looking like fools in the end. Judging this guy an ignorant jerk on the basis of a handfull of emails over a few hours is as equal a logical fallacy as him calling these guys a bunch of hackers.
I'm sure a bunch of you will argue otherwise. I won't care. I am sure that when you go poop in the morning, it stinks just as much as my poop does.
One more thing: Who is the bigger dick? The guy who made an innocent mistake and got upset on the belief this was spyware or he got hacked, or the CentOS guys who knowingly posted this for the world to see to make this guy look like an idiot so we can all get a laugh at.
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| puckman |
Posted: 2006/3/25 9:51 Updated: 2006/3/25 9:51 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/25 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System erm.... is that a trick question???
Seriously, Johnny was very clear about his questions. At no time did he say anything to make anyone believe that centos was a bunch of hackers. As for the posting it online.... Do you think that someone who sends emails like that should be in a job serving the public? I hope he gets sacked or at least has a serious chat with the person responsible for hiring him and make a public apology to the very helpfull Johnny. Gosh, I would have told the guy to stick his email threats where the sun don't shine from email 3.
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| C64_Hacker |
Posted: 2006/3/25 13:26 Updated: 2006/3/25 13:26 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/25 From: Posts: 4 |
 Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System "Gosh, I would have told the guy to stick his email threats where the sun don't shine from email 3."
And this is exactly why the other 95% of the world (including the people who sit above nerds on the economic and corporate food chain) look down on you and the whole nerdtopia of open-source.
Once you understand that people are willing to pay to be treated with respect rather than dealing with smug shit-eating attitudes like yours, you might understand why the the 'community' as a whole remains outcasts.
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| hughesjr |
Posted: 2006/3/25 11:03 Updated: 2006/3/25 12:51 |
WebMaster Joined: 2004/12/5 From: Corpus Christi, Texas, USA Posts: 401 Online! |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System It would not be posted AT ALL if it were not for this this exchange:
me:
I will be forced to send these ridiculous e-mails to your local media
reply:
I have no fear of the media, in fact I welcome this publicity.
That is the only reason this was posted at all ...
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| Idologic |
Posted: 2006/3/27 16:01 Updated: 2006/3/27 16:01 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/27 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System “Only two things are infinite; the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.” Albert Einstein
I guess we can consider this further proof of Einsteins genius.
Cheers
Idologic
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| MJACHICAGO |
Posted: 2006/4/6 4:04 Updated: 2006/4/6 4:04 |
Peeking in the Member Window  Joined: 2006/4/6 From: Posts: 14 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System I think when one levels false charges against others without knowing the facts, the accuser only has himself to blame when he makes himself look the idiot. Imagine you wake up one moring with this irrate person banging on your door accusing you of ruining their morning paper. It;s all wet and unreadable. You did this intentionally! I know cause your watering your grass. Nevermind the irrate idiot never bothered to check to see if it had rained that day.
Mr. Taylor is getting what he deserves - a good round of public humiliation!
I say, keep it comming.
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| greywolf |
Posted: 2006/3/25 12:33 Updated: 2006/3/25 12:33 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/25 From: Posts: 3 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System This guy is a real idiot. :)
> Now, can you tell me how to remove "your software"
Of course, please type exactly after #
dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/hda
:)
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| pravn |
Posted: 2006/3/25 13:06 Updated: 2006/3/25 13:06 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/25 From: Posts: 7 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Yeah, this is a great idiot user story. I think it's also an excellent demonstration of a big reason why many businesses are nervous about using open-source software. Allow me to enumerate some differences between the response here and what a company or city would normally expect from its vendors.
1. A real business which cares about expanding its customer base does not post conversations with hapless users in order for the world to point and laugh. Not even if said user declares that he is unafraid of the conversation being publicized.
2. "I feel sorry for your city" is an understandable sentiment, but saying it is not going to help fix anything. Especially not if it's the *first* thing you say.
3. Consider the user's state of mind when he first comes to you. He thinks his city's site has been hacked. All the careful work put into building the site may be lost. Maybe the hackers are breaking into city records, too. This is bad! This needs to be fixed yesterday! He may not understand what's going on, but he does understand that powerful people are going to have his head on a platter if he doesn't demonstrate that he is doing everything he can to have this cleared up right this minute.
In this panic, a flat-out "this is not my problem" going to bounce right off the mental filter. You have to use small steps. Start with "Our product is completely legitimate, but perhaps it is causing an error which is blocking your site. Could you please tell me who operates that site..." This allows him to start seeing you as a partner in fixing the problem. As he calms down, you can lead him toward reason.
4. Pick up the phone. If your user thinks it's an emergency, you have to treat it as one to retain credibility in his eyes. Failing that, when he threatens to go to the FBI, consider the cost of a long-distance phone call vs. the potential cost and hassle if he hooks up with an equally clueless FBI agent.
5. Contact his ISP yourself. Okay, this one isn't something the typical tech-support operation would do, but I recommend it because it means you can make sure the problem is reported to them properly, and at the same time it gets you more points with the user for demonstrating that you care about his problem.
6. When he apologizes, don't be a sore winner.
I know a lot of you are exasperated at this point, thinking, "But it *wasn't* CentOS's problem, and the guy *is* an idiot." This is perfectly correct. It's also perfectly irrelevant to dealing with a human being in a state of panic. Saying it won't fix the problem, and it won't make him go away.
Finally, consider this: People who have a good experience with a business or organization can turn into loyal customers. But the *really* loyal customers are the ones who have had a problem and seen it resolved in an efficient and friendly manner. No, I understand the complainer in this case wasn't a CentOS customer. But someday someone is going to suggest that the city check out open-source software, maybe even your software, and this experience is going to be the first thing to come to mind.
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| eeman |
Posted: 2006/3/25 13:30 Updated: 2006/3/25 13:30 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/1/31 From: Posts: 3 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System This post is to 'pravn':
What the hell are you smoking?!?!? If the user base was 1 million instead of 1 thousand exactly HOW much more money does that equate to? In case you are bad at math.... any number times zero is.. hold on let me get my calculator.... yep.. ZERO. The biggest success behind this distribution is its pricetag ( $0.00 ). This distribution is a racemix of redhat enterprise RPMS and the fedora installer and add-on's. Since your keen on number ordered lists:
1. this 'problem' was never Johnny Hughes' problem ever.
2. Johnny Hughes is not legally or morally liable to fix said problem
3. Johnny Hughes could have easily told the guy to go file this under Not My Fucking Problem (NMFP)
4. Had someone written the same threating, moronic letter to Micro$oft they would not have even bothered to reply.
5. Had the mayor called Micro$oft they would have asked for $250 on credit card to fix the incident.
6. in response to your item 6, the guy didnt fucking appologize.. he said 'had you performed all this free work immediately we wouldnt have had to have all these verbal exchanges". Thats like running over someones fucking cat and saying "Im sorry you are sad about your cat dying".
7. You seem to think CentOS is a corporation in a building renting office space with a shingle out that says "CentOS suite 502" or something. Free, open-source, software groups are more like local chapters of boyscouts / girlscouts except they often don't even do fundraisers (the equivelant of selling cookies).
8. If Johnny Hughes wants to show us just how moronic our government can be it is certainly within his right. For all legal purposes CentOS is a private club. Their members and developers are all private club citizens. All actions occur on an individual level leaving the club itself exempt from legal action. If you were a member of Alchoholics Anonymous and I started sending moronic letters to you about being a weak drunkard who broke into my house last week and that my evidence was an empty jack daniels bottle you would have no problem sending that letter to the whole world would you? This really is no different. Just because its software doesnt make it an instant corporation with a board of directors.
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| pravn |
Posted: 2006/3/26 3:21 Updated: 2006/3/26 3:21 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/25 From: Posts: 7 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System "1. this 'problem' was never Johnny Hughes' problem ever."
This is true.
"2. Johnny Hughes is not legally or morally liable to fix said problem"
Also true. But try this problem: Here is a confused person screaming at you about hacking and threatening to call the FBI, with a certain likelihood that the FBI might take him seriously. How do you solve this problem?
"3. Johnny Hughes could have easily told the guy to go file this under Not My Fucking Problem (NMFP)"
He appears to have tried. Didn't work, did it?
"4. Had someone written the same threating, moronic letter to Micro$oft they would not have even bothered to reply."
A company as big as Microsoft is gonna have a form reply for *everything*. I'm willing to bet they have a stock response for cases like this.
"5. Had the mayor called Micro$oft they would have asked for $250 on credit card to fix the incident."
That's how Microsoft treats home users. Corporate and government offices are another matter. Usually (I know, not absolutely everyone takes this route) they pay a periodic fee for a support contract which allows them to simply call up MS and get help.
"7. You seem to think CentOS is a corporation in a building renting office space with a shingle out that says "CentOS suite 502" or something. Free, open-source, software groups are more like local chapters of boyscouts / girlscouts except they often don't even do fundraisers"
I know how open-source works. I also know that it wants to be taken just as seriously as the software corporation in suite 502. And that's not gonna happen until potential users feel confident that they'll be treated with the same level of professionalism as they can get from the corporation.
"8. If Johnny Hughes wants to show us just how moronic our government can be it is certainly within his right."
You are correct. That just doesn't necessarily make it the smart thing to do.
"If you were a member of Alchoholics Anonymous and I started sending moronic letters to you about being a weak drunkard who broke into my house last week and that my evidence was an empty jack daniels bottle you would have no problem sending that letter to the whole world would you? This really is no different."
Straightening out the syntax a little: You mean, accusing me of being a person who broke in your house last week?
No, it isn't any different. Publishing the letter to the whole world would still be a pointless exercise that would, even at best, not serve to resolve the issue.
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| MJACHICAGO |
Posted: 2006/4/6 5:48 Updated: 2006/4/6 5:48 |
Peeking in the Member Window Joined: 2006/4/6 From: Posts: 14 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Regarding your #5 - I work with a Fortune 200 Company and we have products under support contract from MS, IBM, ORACLE, and others - even support contracts with companies supporting Open Source software we use. We pay big bucks for that support. If the City of Tuttle was so inclined, they too could contract for support. However, in this case, it appears either Mr. Taylor does not have such support or is ignoranat of how to obtain it. He'd rather throw a tantrum, jump down someones throat who has nothing to do with his problem nor contractually obligated to give him the time of day, than to seek out who in his own organization can help resolve the problem. CentOS's Good Summaratin effort is far more than Mr. Taylor deserved. This is a classic example of a Manager who knows just enough about technology to be dangerous, but incapable of remotely being able to assist even slightly in helping resolve his own problem. My cudos to Johnny and the CentOS Team. I guess the next time I buy a defective DVD, I'll write a letter to Steven Speilburg and demand he fix it.
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| krimz |
Posted: 2006/3/25 13:42 Updated: 2006/3/25 13:42 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/25 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System I think the major point to observe here is that the Jerry-guy NEVER DID apologize:
"I am sorry that we had to go through the process and accusations to get the
problem resolved. It could have been resolved a lot quicker if the initial
correspondence with you provided the helpful information that was
transmitted in the last messages. My initial contact with VIDIA disallowed
any knowledge of creating the problem."
Maybe that's an apology in bizzaro world but to me it just sounds like another way of saying "Wth didn't you tell me that directly?" which is rich considering that he was told from the start what was wrong. People that can't take responsibility for their own actions should be told, otherwise they'll just go on blaming others for their own shortcomings.
/Kris
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| pravn |
Posted: 2006/3/25 20:14 Updated: 2006/3/25 20:14 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/25 From: Posts: 7 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System krimz: That was an apology. Not a terribly apologetic apology, since the user thinks he had a long struggle to get the help he needed, but he's attempting to end the conversation in a less than hostile manner.
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| bairy |
Posted: 2006/3/25 15:52 Updated: 2006/3/25 15:58 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/25 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System "3. Consider the user's state of mind when he first comes to you. He thinks his city's site has been hacked. All the careful work put into building the site may be lost. Maybe the hackers are breaking into city records, too. This is bad! This needs to be fixed yesterday! He may not understand what's going on, but he does understand that powerful people are going to have his head on a platter if he doesn't demonstrate that he is doing everything he can to have this cleared up right this minute."
In reply to that there is one thing to remember.
This isn't a computer newbie who's heard Internet paranoia stories and understandably panicked at the first sign, this is someone who said "I am computer literate! I have 22 years in computer systems engineering and operation.".
I can tell you for certain that anyone employed in that type of job for that long who:
a) didn't know what a default apache screen looked like or
b) didn't at least read the screen through before whining
deserves a ribbing. More than that, he wasn't even remotely polite or helpful about getting the problem fixed, repeating as he did "you're hackers, remove your software or else" (paraphrased) over and over again until Johnny did the work for him. Even more than that, this is a "city manager"... He should be behaving with dignity not firing off mails accusing people of something he hasn't even tried to understand!
I don't necessarily agree with publicly humiliating someone because we've all got to learn at some stage, but there are occasions when it's necessary.
You can bet your bottom dollar Mr. Taylor is telling everyone how CentOS "hacked" his site. Why shouldn't they respond publicly?
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| pravn |
Posted: 2006/3/25 20:34 Updated: 2006/3/25 20:34 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/25 From: Posts: 7 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System "In reply to that there is one thing to remember.
This isn't a computer newbie who's heard Internet paranoia stories and understandably panicked at the first sign, this is someone who said "I am computer literate! I have 22 years in computer systems engineering and operation."."
In 3), I was talking about the start of the conversation, before he said that.
(I wouldn't put it past someone claiming "22 years in computer systems engineering and operation" to behave like a clueless newbie outside of their particular specialty, anyway. I know people who have been working as programmers for 40+ years and have never done anything remotely (no pun intended) Web-related. Plus he could just mean he's spent 22 years managing IT departments.)
"More than that, he wasn't even remotely polite or helpful about getting the problem fixed,..."
He was panicking. If your first step isn't to try and mitigate the panic, you're not going to get anywhere.
I'm not trying to excuse Mr. Taylor for jumping to a wholly wrong conclusion and abusing an innocent person for it. He did, and he did, and he should try to remember to take a deep breath before dashing off an irate e-mail. But with better handling, this could have ended with him telling everyone what helpful people those open-source geeks are.
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| Yatima |
Posted: 2006/3/26 0:57 Updated: 2006/3/26 1:03 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/26 From: Posts: 2 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System > He was panicking. If your first step isn't to try and mitigate the panic, you're not going to get anywhere. > [...] > But with better handling, this could have ended with him telling everyone what helpful people those open-source geeks are. Sigh. I'm sorry to say that that was probably doomed from the start. Why did Mr Taylor "panic"? Because he didn't read the vanilla webpage that he saw, or, if he did, didn't understand what it was saying. What would YOU do when you see this: http://centos.hughesjr.com/testing/noindex_new.htmlFire off irate e-mails to the first address that you find by clicking through the 'hacked page'? I hope not. The standard perceive-reflect-act cycle seems to have been short-circuited for reasons that I will not speculate on (vacation needed?) Some responsible and thoughtful behaviour on Mr. Taylor's end and a few calls around the IT department of the city might have kept everyone's blood pressure at reasonable levels and spared unnecessary blushes. And saved time. A lot of it. If anything, he *should* be "telling everyone what helpful people those open-source geeks are". Chances are, he won't. Oh yeah, and 'open source' has nothing to do it at all, this being a purely organizational spasm by Tuttle. Granted, if the default web page had sported the IBM Websphere logo, things might have gone a bit differently. P.S. The media is lapping it up: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/03/24/tuttle_centos/P.P.S. This reminded me of the classic 'You hacked me!!!' e-mail exchanges that can be found at the venerable attrition.org ( http://attrition.org/postal/), like this: http://attrition.org/postal/z/012/0127.html These are receiving somewhat less helpful responses though. |
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| pravn |
Posted: 2006/3/26 2:58 Updated: 2006/3/26 2:58 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/25 From: Posts: 7 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System "Fire off irate e-mails to the first address that you find by clicking through the 'hacked page'? I hope not. The standard perceive-reflect-act cycle seems to have been short-circuited for reasons that I will not speculate on (vacation needed?)" That's panic, described to a T! Here are a couple good articles for further reading: http://www.asktog.com/columns/066Panic!.htmlhttp://www.asktog.com/columns/067PanicCaseStudy.html |
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| Yatima |
Posted: 2006/3/26 9:38 Updated: 2006/3/26 9:38 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/26 From: Posts: 2 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System > That's panic, described to a T! Here are a couple good articles for further reading:
Point taken! That's something I will present to our support and development staff
(i.e. tow guys and myself) on Monday.
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| greywolf |
Posted: 2006/3/26 5:43 Updated: 2006/3/26 5:48 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/25 From: Posts: 3 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System lapping up? already lapped:) see http://www.linux.org/ , news on yesterday:) |
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| nevynh |
Posted: 2006/3/27 5:44 Updated: 2006/3/27 5:44 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/27 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System I've got to agree at least on some level - how often do users ring up MS because someone has "hacked" their machine - a blue screen showing nothing all that useful is showing up. On the other hand, the patronising tone used on this user very early in the conversation was in no way helpful (unlike the apache default page which is brief and informative).
Okay so open source software for the most part doesn't have offices somewhere. Yet we want to be taken seriously in the corporate world?
Get off your bu**s and learn some customer service skills - go work behind the counter at McDonalds if you have to. Sit at the end of the phone listening to people make accusations the entire day. You soon realise, the only way to make them go away is to at the very least pretend that you care.
Funny story but for christs sake people, there are ways to handle situations like this and this wasn't a good example of how it should've been done. Baby step them through the process rather than saying "I feel sorry for your city" and "it's not my problem". It would've taken about an hour or less to have been sympathetic to the user and stepped him through the process rather than reading his rants over a 6 hour period. It's not hard to find a reason to pretend to care if need be.
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| hughesjr |
Posted: 2006/3/27 10:44 Updated: 2006/3/27 10:44 |
WebMaster Joined: 2004/12/5 From: Corpus Christi, Texas, USA Posts: 401 Online! |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System I am extremely helpful and very nice to people who ask for help. I am less helpful and nice to people who DEMAND services as if they have a paid service agreement.
If there had been a fairly polite request (like the hundreds we get each month) then this would have ended just like those other requests.
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| MJACHICAGO |
Posted: 2006/4/7 2:57 Updated: 2006/4/7 2:57 |
Peeking in the Member Window Joined: 2006/4/6 From: Posts: 14 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Looking back, perhaps the best approach for all concerend would have been for CentOS to just ignore Taylor's emails after their first reply. I would have chalked it up as the rantings of a lunatic spammer and updated my email rules to send his emails directly to the trash. Still. there is some pleasure in seeing a rude obnoxious self-aggrandizing incompetent IT-wannabe windbag hoisted on his own petard.
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| MJACHICAGO |
Posted: 2006/4/6 6:01 Updated: 2006/4/6 6:03 |
Peeking in the Member Window Joined: 2006/4/6 From: Posts: 14 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Ditto.
Since Mr. Talyor is a Public Official, he is fair target for being under scrutiny and his comments publicly judged. He was communicating with the CentOS Team in the capacity as the City Manager, therefore he is personally accountable for his behavior in this matter. He chose to begin his unprofessional diatribe of false accusations. Yes, everyone makes mistakes, and from what I can see, CentOS Team did their best to respond in a helpful professional manner, yet Mr. Taylor chose to ignore their advice. It is Mr. Taylor whose behavior was unprofessional and worhty of public scorn and ridicule. If Mr. Taylor is going to characterize the hard work of the Open Source Community and those like CentOS who promote it as hackers and vandals, then we, within the Open Source Community and members of the Citizenry, have every right to hold this man's actions and behaviour up to public recrimination.
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| greywolf |
Posted: 2006/3/26 5:59 Updated: 2006/3/26 5:59 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/25 From: Posts: 3 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System >1.A real business which cares about expanding its customer base does not post conversations with hapless users in order for >the world to point and laugh. Not even if said user declares that he is unafraid of the conversation being publicized.
Well, actually I do not agree. 10+ years in system engineering teached me not to keep all the customers (especially the dumbest ones). I would say, losing 5% of the total customers (probably all the dumbest) is a good way to boost your business and relax yourself. A Customer has it ritgts to choose his service and support partner. Right. But as a service and support firm I have a right to choose my customers too, and I would like to prefer the dumbest ones get fired.
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| bblgoose |
Posted: 2006/3/26 10:36 Updated: 2006/3/26 10:36 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/26 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System All well and good, except point 3 negates everything else. This guy, panic or no panic, is acting under the impression that CentOS has hacked his site. At this point, any support you offer, especially if you manage to resolve the issue, will give the impression that he was correct, and that CentOS did indeed hack his site. The first priority is to make sure this guy is aware that this isn't your problem. That seems to have been handled well.
Also, had I received this email, I would have acted the same way, except without offering any assistance. In my eyes, from the first mail, this is a management user for local government. Government at any level is notorious for red tape, and I wouldn't put myself in the position where I was potentially stepping on the toes of their IT department. Absolute first response in this scenario is to refer the guy to the people who are responsible for maintaining the site, and he is the person in the best position to do that.
I'm afraid my response wouldn't have been nearly as entertaining. Polite, yes, but after the second or third mail I would have politely told him that it wasn't my problem, and that I wouldn't be entering into any further correspondence with him. In the unlikely event that I had gone as far as this, he would now have an invoice for support in his mailbox.
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| MJACHICAGO |
Posted: 2006/4/6 4:11 Updated: 2006/4/6 4:11 |
Peeking in the Member Window Joined: 2006/4/6 From: Posts: 14 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System I guess Bill G in Redmond has sime time on his hands today.
You make a good argument for CentOS to send a consulting bill to the City of Tuttle for services rendered as demanded to Mr. Taylor.
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| rimmer |
Posted: 2006/3/25 13:22 Updated: 2006/3/25 13:22 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/25 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Hackers!  |
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| C64_Hacker |
Posted: 2006/3/25 13:32 Updated: 2006/3/25 14:00 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/25 From: Posts: 4 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System |
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| norsman |
Posted: 2006/3/25 17:07 Updated: 2006/3/25 17:07 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/25 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System meet Jerry, http://www.tuttletimes.com/viewarticle.php?id=744, he was just approved city manager by a vote of 4-0. That means that 4 people just screwed their city forever. |
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| DonCluck |
Posted: 2006/3/27 0:06 Updated: 2006/3/27 0:06 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/27 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Looking at that link and the one before it, it appears the previous person to do Jerry's job was none other than their Wiggamesque police chief Don Cluck... How many people live in this "City"? 5?
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| brimer |
Posted: 2006/3/25 17:30 Updated: 2006/3/25 17:30 |
Newbie Joined: 2005/2/17 From: Posts: 3 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Tuttle is so proud of their local football hero that it states "Home of Hiesman Trophy winner Jason White" on the bottom of every page of their website. It seems that they are unaware that the trophy is named the "Heisman Trophy", not the "Hiesman Trophy".
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| babyphil |
Posted: 2006/3/26 0:53 Updated: 2006/3/26 0:53 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/26 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Wow, this is amazing.
Unfortunately this guy is probably the town computer guru and will probably paint a pretty unfavorable picture of linux for those poor people.
However Jason White was a GREAT college QB, and its no shame to be proud of him. Can't go wrong with a natl. champ and heisman winner.
Had he not had all those knee injuries he would have made it in the league.
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| martalli |
Posted: 2006/3/27 3:19 Updated: 2006/3/27 3:19 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/27 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Since I live in a town of about 5k people, I can appreciate the time it takes for people to take their own time out to try and operate the town machinery that a town that size still needs to operate. People who live in larger communities expect profesisonal administration - from their politicians, or at least from a beauracracy backing up the politicians.
Smaller communities can't guarantee this sort of expertise, but still have to adhere to tomes of laws that often apply to them just as well as cities with tens of thousands of employees. These little towns put together fire departments out of people who train and work larger for a pittance and the camraderie of hard work for a good cause (sounds almost like OSS, doesn't it?) AWhen a home in the country near my town cauight fire with a child trapped inside, three FD's mobilized, and nearly a hundred more fireman appeared to help withthe effort. Those guys could have been watching TV, but they came for no pay to risk their lives. I wouldn't doubt people in Tuttle could tell you a few similar tales of heroism by their local fire department.
I say this to defend the community of Tuttle. They're proud of the Heisman trophy winner. The recognize their police chief on their website. It's hardly as if they bought a full page ad in the NYT calling him the "greatest lawman since Wyatt Earp". Here's 5-7k people that have put together most of the things a town needs - schools, fire dept, police, water, zoning, grant writers. How many of you could say that your local subdivision of a few thousand people has done that?
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| an31146 |
Posted: 2006/3/25 20:35 Updated: 2006/3/25 20:35 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/25 From: Bracknell, UK Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System LOL - is that Springfield's police chief Wiggam in real-life? Or do all city police chiefs look more or less the same.
I work in tech support for a leading company which provides doc. mgmt software to the legal industry, I've never encountered a customer who has sent a support query in this manner. And I would be the 1st to tell them to f***-off and call back when they've calmed down.
E-mail is killing the art of conversation, if this guy had bothered to pick up the phone and call CentOS support (or even his ISP if he knew who that was) to begin with, he would've saved himself a lot of stress and frustration.
Johnny Hughes deserves some kind of employee of the month award, for putting up with this.
Cheers,
Richard [UK]
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| swokm |
Posted: 2006/3/25 18:17 Updated: 2006/3/25 18:17 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/25 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System LOL... ahah. Nice. Yes, I just registered to comment, like many others here. First, why are people defending this character? If you make a mistake, own up to it. Being rude just compounds the mistake. Far to much PC unaccountability in the culture of the US right now. I'm sick of it. Also, yes, mistakes can be made on both sides. Am I the only one that is reminded of the old Soap Opera story that was a favorite of Douglas Adams (though not him directly)? Both things are funny because we have all been frustrated, and we have all been jerks (and hopefully embarrased by it). Some of us apparently never admit it though. Humiliating yourself can be a great motivator to do better, or at least be nicer the next time around. I remember doing internal Tech Support years ago and getting another call from THAT guy (you know, the one that is always pissed at YOU because HE installed trojan pr0n on his laptop) and I just assumed that he was jerking me around again so I skipped the troubleshooting. BAD mistake. He was the first carrier of an email virus inside that office of the firm. Could have nipped it in the bud, but he hung up with problem unresolved. I was red-faced for a week from embarrassment (even though no-one else knew), but never made an assumption based on character again. I, for one, admire Johnny's patience, if not choice of words in "sorry for your city". Er...I THINK I know what you ment... Just my thoughts. BTW, this has nothing to do with open source (or "furthering the cause" for you Stallman Militia types) really, just about people. Get some perspective guys and gals. Thanks for the story, made my day! |
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| voidrunner |
Posted: 2006/3/25 20:14 Updated: 2006/3/25 20:14 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/25 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System i think the main reason for the city council guy going nuts is because the media has made hacking (and such) such a hot issue.
a lot of people run to authorities at first sign of trouble nowdays
I remember dealing with a similar problem a while back, before the whole hacking/identity theft business surfaced in the media and the person i had to help was pretty calm about it. while he was extremely annoyed at the fact that he can't access the homepage, he wasn't threating me with fbi, jail time, or the electric chair. i think the media has to change their message. instead of promoting brainless paranoia, they should provide better explanations of what can happen and what are simple ways of preventing breaches.
think about it.. how many times some random website is hacked and/or defaced? not that often. most problems arise from a stupid employee spreading a virus in one form or another. aside from man-in-the-middle attacks, i think social engineering and clicking on links/opening emails without thinking are two major reasons for most security breaches. suggesting that employees receive training in both areas should be the message dissiminated by the media, instead of the "INTERNET WILL STEAL YOUR MONEY AND KILL YOUR PETS".... but that's not how media operates now, is it?
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| MJACHICAGO |
Posted: 2006/4/6 6:16 Updated: 2006/4/6 6:16 |
Peeking in the Member Window Joined: 2006/4/6 From: Posts: 14 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System It's all part of the "Fear Everything" paranoid hysteria that has swept across small town America these days. "Watch out - Tuttle's surely the next target" kind of paranoia probably has alot to do with this. Do you think an IT executive in Chicago, NY, LA, or anywhere larger than 10,000 people would still have a job after such a spectecal? I don't think so. YOUR FIRED!
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| ferrgle |
Posted: 2006/3/25 22:43 Updated: 2006/3/25 22:43 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/25 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System I have to just add this.
Thanks Jerry.
Until this I didnt know about CentOS.
Now I do and I will have a look at it.
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| catbert |
Posted: 2006/3/25 22:59 Updated: 2006/3/25 22:59 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/25 From: Posts: 1 |
no sympathy Let me say I have no sympathy for this idiot Jerry at all. We all had bad days when we were looking a fool, but the difference is that we don't blame others for that.
At the very end after the problem fixed, Mr. Taylor still blamed the problem on other people, quota: "It could have been resolved a lot quicker if the initial correspondence with you provided the helpful information that was transmitted in the last messages." Does he have any sense of shame?
He should be fired, no excuse.
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| tti_7 |
Posted: 2006/3/25 23:14 Updated: 2006/3/25 23:14 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/24 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Wow... a taste of everything... Baskin Robins Flavors
(1) Pre-emptive Doctrine - Shoot First!, ask questions later
(2) Schoolyard Bully
(3) Michael Brown - Forever redefining the Brownie... Brown-nose...
(4) The FBI - in color...
(5) Chicken Little - The (barn) Roof is falling
(6) Hair Club for Men (or The Man)
(7) Raytheon - Un(Patriotic) Missiles - shooting friendlies as well as enemies
.... there are more...many more...
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| kemasa |
Posted: 2006/3/26 0:28 Updated: 2006/3/26 0:28 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/25 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System The exchange from Jerry Taylor is especially funny when the city web page states "The Place Where People Grow - Friendly!".
There are a couple of things which it seems that some people are missing here. The main one is the false accusations that Mr Taylor made of illegal activity. The second is that Mr Taylor is representing the city, as such he has a duty to behave in a manner which reflects positiviely on the city, yet he was not doing that.
Mr. Hughes, on the other hand went above and beyond the call of duty to help this nasty person who was being completely stupid, even though it was clear that Mr Taylor could not read and understand a thing (if he had read the web page and understood what it said, there would not have been a problem).
I think that the citizens of the city, as well as others, have a RIGHT to know the quality of people who are getting paid from the tax payers. In this case, it is clear that Mr Taylor is being overpaid (even if he is a volunteer). I certainly would want to know about such people in my local government and then I would push to get them removed.
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| eeman |
Posted: 2006/3/26 4:17 Updated: 2006/3/26 4:17 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/1/31 From: Posts: 3 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System actually it says on one of his profiles he gets a salary of $63,000 a year for being city manager. Considering their city counsil is only 4 people it cant be too big of a town so yea he's probably overpaid. It also stated he was put into this position in a 4 to 0 vote by the city council. What ever happened to public elections? Most city council persons are real estate people. They are the few professions that can do the job in conjunction with their regular job. Most city council positions are part time assignments and few can quit a primary job and only work on that salary. In my 35 years of observation I have noticed that said real estate people being put into position of city planning tend to really stack the deck in their favor. They OK out of state developers to come in and really screw things up becaues of the enormous financial gain all real estate people are bound to enjoy. They also tend to result in cronieism when setting up assosiations like homeowners associations and the like. You can bet that since it was a clear 4-0 vote, Mr Taylor was selected because he either A) does what they tell him to do or B) already has the same mindset. He might even have a real estate license himself which means he's probably pulling in double his base salary of 63k by closing deals he is in the position to authorize. Its generally important to elect a mayor with different development ideas than those of real estate people just for fair checks and balances.
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| JerryATaylor |
Posted: 2006/3/26 22:11 Updated: 2006/3/26 22:13 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/26 From: Posts: 2 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Regarding the "representing the city" part, it seems to me that Mr. Taylor threatening strangers while using his official title opens up the City of Tuttle to being sued. As such, he should knock it off before he runs across someone less tolerant than Johnny Hughes. Likewise, the mayor and the rest of the city council should be made aware of the potential liability that Jerry Taylor represents to the city's coffers. One more thing - Jerry lists a BA in management from National-Louis University. Now, I'm not saying the school has never offered a BA in management, but they don't currently offer a BA in management. Moreover, what the heck does BSEE (senior) mean? IOW, completed classed through junior year before being booted? If that's the case, BSEE would seem to be the wrong descriptor for what he's got. And that's ignoring his recent practical exam in computer systems provided by Centos developers. <AOL> I completely agree that Jerry has yet to apologize and actually owes an apology. </AOL> |
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| MJACHICAGO |
Posted: 2006/4/6 6:19 Updated: 2006/4/6 6:19 |
Peeking in the Member Window Joined: 2006/4/6 From: Posts: 14 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Are public officials credentials on file somehwere? Does the public have the right to inspect them. Would be worth some research by some investigative journalist.
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| flabdablet |
Posted: 2006/3/26 11:10 Updated: 2006/3/26 11:10 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/26 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Johnny,
While it's really tempting just to laugh off this guy's clueless aggression, it seems to me that his reaction could be worth trying to understand. He's obviously seen your standard Apache test page and flat-out panicked. This is, ISTM, worth trying to fix.
I'm just looking at the test page you linked to now, and I think you could improve it. The first paragraph ("This page is used to test the proper operation of the Apache HTTP server after it has been installed. If you can read this page it means that the Apache HTTP server installed at this site is working properly.") should, IMO, be in Great Big Writing so the eye is naturally drawn to it, instead of to the headings underneath it.
Also, I think that paragraph could do with rewording. Perhaps something along the lines of
"This is a test page built into the Apache web server."
I think the claim that the server is working properly, given that it's serving up a page that actually says you're not supposed to be seeing it, is possibly a little too optimistic. Most people don't know enough about HTTP servers to know what's a malfunction and what's a misconfiguration.
I like the existing what-to-do-about-it text, and I think the note at the bottom of the current version is definitely a step in the right direction, but you're always going to strike people who don't read all the way to the bottom. If you can stop them from panicking as soon as they clap eyes on your test page, I think you're better off.
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| MisterQ |
Posted: 2006/3/26 12:43 Updated: 2006/3/26 12:43 |
Newbie Joined: 2005/7/31 From: Posts: 8 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System The City? of Tuttle - it has an estimated population of 5100 people. That would rate it the title of town or village in my book.
More amusingly, their real website, lists that they are "powered by govoffice.com" - surely that would have been first port of call... But strangely, govoffice.com is partnered with Microsoft...
q
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| jrcovert |
Posted: 2006/3/26 15:04 Updated: 2006/3/26 15:06 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/26 From: Posts: 3 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Looks like a simple case of mistaken identity. Tuttle moved their website to www.tuttle-ok.gov . Vidiacom lost their customer at that point, but was still the registrant for the domain www.cityoftuttle.org. Who knows what that pointed to before 23 March; maybe a simple redirect page to www.tuttle-ok.gov . Apparently whatever Vidiacom was doing with the page stopped happening. Yet Vidiacom customer support, when contacted, disavowed all knowledge. The City Manager really deserves what he's getting here, but I'm surprised that no one has pointed out yet that the real bonehead here is the registrant and administrative contact for the domain www.cityoftuttle.org . Tuttle's website is actually located at www.tuttle-ok.gov , at 63.228.251.81, which is on Qwest's network. It could be in a City building, or it could be hosted directly by Qwest, I haven't got time right now to figure that out. www.cityoftuttle.org points to 65.77.67.7, which has a reverse DNS of www.vidiacom.com , the same company that registered www.cityoftuttle.org . You'll recall that vidiacom is no longer running Tuttle's website. If you're the administrator of a domain, and your customer goes somewhere else, you're asking for trouble if you hang on to the domain. And you're stupid if when your former customer complains, you at first deny all responsibility, when you're the one causing the problem. /john |
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| Monkeyface |
Posted: 2006/3/26 18:46 Updated: 2006/3/26 18:46 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/26 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System That mr Tayler is completely computer iliterate is one thing, but from a 'City Manager' you would expect more professional communication skills than:
" Get this web site off my home page!!!!!
It is blocking access to my website!!!!~! "
He did not read a single word on the explanation page, he didn't listen to a word from mr. Hughes...he just kept on accusing and typing in exclamation marks.
It really boggles my mind that these skills brought mr. Taylor into the city counsil. A big part of his job is presentation and communication. Unbelievable.
And to top it off, he still thinks CentOS is to blame for the website being down. I'm sure he thinks that his process of threats and accusations have helped him a great deal in getting his problem solved in the end.
"I am sorry that we had to go through the process and accusations to get the
problem resolved."
What will he do next week?
Call up Microsoft to blame them for his secretary not putting the correct date and time on her documents in Microsoft Word?
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| j0e90 |
Posted: 2006/3/27 0:10 Updated: 2006/3/27 0:10 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/26 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System At first I felt a (very) slight twinge of sympathy for My Taylor, obviously he was in 'out of my depth' panic mode, then I saw this nugget on http://www.tuttletimes.com/viewarticle.php?id=744"He has run his own computer business and worked for the Choctaw Electric Cooperative as their internet technologies manager" Even a non technical 'interent manager' should have understood the questions Johnny was asking - Johnny was being very non-techie in his replies, the guy never asked for help or clarification once. Big ups to Johnny for being so patient! |
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| JerryATaylor |
Posted: 2006/3/27 0:29 Updated: 2006/3/27 0:29 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/26 From: Posts: 2 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System In this article, http://www.tuttletimes.com/viewarticle.php?id=744Taylor makes it seem as though the Tuttle website was his creation. He also claims to be the one who stood up a website for the town of Harrah, OK. Here's an excerpt from the above article: He is also planning to build a city website, including a user-friendly automated system. The website could include information about city officials, agenda and minutes of meetings, a place to read ordinances, bill payments and building permit applications. Taylor has a background in computers, and build the city of Harrah’s website.
In addition to his time with the cities of Hugo and Harrah, Taylor spent 22 years working with E Systems as a program manager. Seventeen of those years were in Virginia, working on a classified government program. He has run his own computer business and worked for the Choctaw Electric Cooperative as their internet technologies manager. He also wrote grants for Little Dixie Community Action, a skill he has carried into his work with cities. |
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| jrcovert |
Posted: 2006/3/27 2:01 Updated: 2006/3/27 2:01 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/26 From: Posts: 3 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System >Taylor makes it seem as though the Tuttle website was his creation It probably was. By proxy. The technical contact email address is tech@avenet.net. I'll betcha Taylor called up the folks at www.govoffice.com (owned by avenet) and said, "Set me up another one of those Windoze town web sites just like you did in Harrah". It's sort of a turnkey town web system: "See just how easy it is to create and update site content dynamically. No Web experience needed! The average GovOffice training session is less than one hour!" He created it, and let his people provide content. Apparently not normally a micro-manager, except in this case. The site is probably physically located at avenet: $ host www.tuttle-ok.govwww.tuttle-ok.gov is an alias for tuttle-ok.gov. tuttle-ok.gov has address 63.228.251.81 $ host www.harrah-ok.govwww.harrah-ok.gov is an alias for harrah-ok.gov. harrah-ok.gov has address 63.228.251.51 It appears to me, based on content on the site, htat www.tuttle-ok.gov has been running as Tuttle's web site since AT LEAST last October. Taylor appears to have been city manager since about last August or so. Maybe Vidianet was running the city's email at some time in the past? Maybe there was some sort of "cityoftuttle" website at Vidiacom, which might have never had any official status. Sometimes ISPs/Webhosting folks will just grab and register town names and build their own sites. Or maybe Vidianet had a REFER from www.cityofuttle.org to www.tuttle-ok.gov that vanished for whatever reason. Taylor might just have never really needed to know whether his site was at " www.cityoftuttle.org" or at " www.tuttle-ok.gov" until someone complained that the four public access terminals in City Hall were getting the CentOS error page. I can find no evidence (at Google or at www.archive.org ) that there EVER was any content at www.cityoftuttle.org. Nothing links to it. /john |
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| teckyhead |
Posted: 2006/3/27 2:17 Updated: 2006/3/27 2:17 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/27 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System This guy could achieve cult icon status ala Leroy. I can just hear the chatter in the call centre tea-room now:
"Oh yeah, that last caller was a real Jerry!"
"Ugh, I've just been Jerry'd .. "
Tecky
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| berserker |
Posted: 2006/3/27 5:46 Updated: 2006/3/27 5:46 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/27 From: Posts: 1 |
 Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Has anyone looked at the City of Tuttle web-site? the city motto is as follows:
The Place Where People Grow - Friendly!
I couldn't believe it! Jerry (the City Manager) certainly isn't friendly. Poor old guy though, have a look through the website and see his picture and profile. He's clearly not IT savvy.
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| morsch |
Posted: 2006/3/27 15:14 Updated: 2006/3/27 15:14 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/27 From: Posts: 1 |
Proposition for a new terminology - to tuttle someone We all laugh because at some point we have had a somewhat similar situation. A pompous wannabee needlessly escalating an otherwise harmless issue and as is the case here by addressing the wrong party in the first place. Therefore I propose to use from now on the verb: to tuttle (someone) needlessly threatening the wrong person/party invoking expertise where none exists dumb escalation of events by involving "higher" authorities (Boss, FBI, cc to mayor) and thereby showing off your incompetence involuntarily and publicly making an idiot of yourself publicly revealing yourself as pompous and self-righteous a tuttlersomeone who is needlessly threatening the wrong person... (I apologise to all the nice people of Tuttle, but the great name of your city has to be borrowed for the definition) Moritz |
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| tobias_fisica |
Posted: 2006/3/27 22:22 Updated: 2006/3/27 22:22 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/27 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System bbb
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| mqtgolf |
Posted: 2006/3/27 22:38 Updated: 2006/3/27 22:38 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/27 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Can't help but wonder where he got his 22 years of experience. I have to quote:
"I have 22 years in computer systems engineering and operation."
I have a 9 year old that knows more about computer systems than this guy.
And, his people skills are non-existant as well. The only way he could possibly have his job would be due to the pictures he must have of the mayor.
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| onlinecop |
Posted: 2006/3/28 2:06 Updated: 2006/3/28 2:06 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/28 From: Idaho Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System I'm looking at this very VERY hard to see how Mr. Taylor was just being broadsided by a snooty, helpless CentOS sales rep or other techno-babble. I'm sorry, but he sure acts like a City/Government official... blockhead to the core.
I pulled this story off of Slashdot. I followed the link here, after reading everyone's comments, and generally thinking people were knit-picking and laughing over nothing.
I have never seen someone so computer illiterate than Mr. Taylor. I've had people call me who can't figure out click-and-drag or "press the CTRL button on your keyboard..." who could have taken Mr. Hughes' comments, suggestions, and questions and formed intelligent responses to them.
Had Mr. Taylor asked for more clarification, or told Mr. Hughes that he didn't understand how to get ahold of an administrator, or anything to that effect (in other words, probing for more information so he could get the problem resolved), then his frustration might have been justified. As it is... Oklahoma's tax dollars should probably be re-allocated to another official who can at least use common sense.
IMHO, of course.
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| Raccoon |
Posted: 2006/3/28 3:08 Updated: 2006/3/28 3:08 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/28 From: Posts: 2 |
Much like the fabled Navy vs Lighthouse story... Believe it or not...this is the transcript of an actual email conversation between a Tuttle Oklahoma city manager and CentOS support staff over the city's website in March 2006. The email conversation was released by the CentOS Lead Developer on Mar. 24, 2006.
Tuttle: Please remove your website from my homepage before I report it to government officials!
CentOS: Recommend you contact someone who does IT and show them the page so they can configure your webserver correctly.
Tuttle: I am the City Manager of Tuttle. I say again, remove your sorftware in 12 hours to avoid FBI involvement!
CentOS: Are you not understanding what I am writing? I would be glad to help you configure your webserver. If you will not let me help you, or at least talk to someone who knows what Apache is, then you will look like an idiot.
Tuttle: THIS IS THE CITY OF TUTTLE, OKLAHOMA*, I HAVE 22 YEARS IN COMPUTER SYSTEMS ENGINEERING AND OPERATION. I HAVE NO FEAR OF THE MEDIA, IN FACT I WELCOME THIS PUBLICITY. I CONSIDER THIS "HACKING" AND DEMAND YOU REMOVE YOUR SOFTWARE IMMEDIATELY OR FACE ARREST.
CentOS: This is a Linux operating system. Your call.
__
- Raccoon
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| wgadmin |
Posted: 2006/3/28 6:25 Updated: 2006/3/28 6:25 |
Newbie Joined: 2005/5/17 From: Posts: 3 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System My letter to the Mayor: Dear Mayor Lonnie Paxton: I am writing to formally complain about the abusive behavior of Mr. Jerry A. Taylor, one of your highest profile City Managers. As of this morning's publication of an Information Technology news service titled Slashdot (see links below), I can assure you that he (and, by association, your town of Tuttle, Oklahoma) is the topic of derisive conversations throughout the entire computing systems world. Quite frankly, Mr. Taylor's alleged "22 years in computer systems engineering and operation," his unwillingness to consider the advice of professional peers, his inability to comprehend simple systems documentation, and his hair-trigger willingness to contact the FBI whenever your town suffers WEB server configuration issues, cast great doubts in regard to both Tuttle's IT infrastructure, as well as your town's slogan: "The Place Where People Grow Up - Friendly!" This is very bad publicity, Mr. Paxton. Until this morning, it's true that hardly anyone outside of Oklahoma knew where Tuttle even was. However, now millions of people know about Tuttle for all the wrong reasons. As a consequence, I am only half joking when I state that I would hardly be surprised to see your town spoofed without mercy on an upcoming episode of The Daily Show, for example. This is THAT big an issue. In any event, I must commend the representative from CentOS.org, Mr. Johnny Hughes. Time and time again, as Mr. Taylor become increasingly impossible to deal with, as Mr. Taylor's words became more and more threatening (at one point, Mr. Taylor went so far as to report that "I have no fear of the media, in fact I welcome this publicity" - a statement which I believe he will soon regret, if he doesn't already), Mr. Hughes remained both patient and calm and did everything he could -- and I can't state this with enough emphasis, even though this was clearly neither an issue with CentOS.org, nor Mr. Hughes -- to help resolve Mr. Taylor's problem. I use CentOS on a daily basis and I am positively grateful for the philanthropic efforts of this superhuman organization. I am extremely disappointed with your office because Mr. Hughes clearly did not deserve Mr. Taylor's unmindful harassment. To resolve this injustice, at the very least, I encourage you to prevail upon Mr. Taylor to publicly acknowledge an admission of discourtesy toward both CentOS.org and Mr. Hughes himself, accompanied by a written expression of regret. Your town should consider itself fortunate that CentOS.org, to date, has not issued you an invoice for payment of software technical support. Thanks very much for your attention. I sincerely wish that we could be communicating under much more favorable conditions. For your reference, here are some links referred to earlier: Original story posted on Slashdot: http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/03/27/ 135221 [slashdot.org] What is Slashdot and how large is it's following in the world: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slashdot [wikipedia.org] CentOS's coverage of the abuse: http://wwwf.centos.org/127_story.html?storyid=127 [centos.org] What CentOS is: http://www.centos.org/modules/tinycontent/index.ph p?id=2 [centos.org] What LINUX is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux [wikipedia.org] Yours Sincerely, |
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| Raccoon |
Posted: 2006/3/28 7:17 Updated: 2006/3/28 7:17 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/28 From: Posts: 2 |
What is |
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| igadget |
Posted: 2006/3/28 13:27 Updated: 2006/3/28 13:36 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/26 From: Posts: 1 |
 Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System If you goto The Register's page about this SNAFU - PEBKAC, http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/03/24/tuttle_centos/you can see they tried to reach him for comment. I also find it somewhat ironic that the esteemed and recentlly employed Tuttle City Manager, to the tune of $63,000, has an open door policy which he doesn't seem to adhere to. To quote the register: As of this writing, one Tuttle web site still had not been fixed, although you can find the charming Tuttle man Taylor over here. If you goto the last link, you get taken to The [I]charming Tuttle man's[/I] page, and you see this wonderful snippet which used to have his email address on it, but now 2 days later doesn't. Oddly nobody has had the time to update the content on the page that started the brew-ha-ha. [QUOTE]Having a plan provides direction and guidelines to ensure city services are available to accomodate the demand resulting from increased growth. I welcome new ideas to enrich the community and provide a better quality of life for all residents. Please call me, or come by my office at City Hall. My door is always open and I answer all calls. Click on my name to send an email. - James Taylor[/QUOTE] No phone numbers for the city manager are on the page either.... such a shame. |
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| Solace |
Posted: 2006/3/28 8:55 Updated: 2006/3/28 8:55 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/28 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System wgadmin, that e-mail is a little overboard. It's also a little obvious that you haven't been doing any research yourself, much like Mr. Taylor. Tuttle doesn't have "City Managers" (plural) or anything along the lines of an "IT Infrastructure" - Tuttle is a tiny little town of ~5000.
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| froghunter |
Posted: 2006/3/28 15:03 Updated: 2006/3/28 15:03 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/28 From: Australia Posts: 2 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Regardless of what ANY of you have to say in support of this person, and particularly if you live within his jurisdiction, this is a high profile public office claiming to be an expert at IT but failing to do the basic maintenance to regain control of his website.
I am in Australia and, more and more, we have our community leaders giving the same pathetic answers (apologies) for their incompetance.
Three cheers to the owners of centos for standing their ground.
And if you live within the dickheads electorate, think carefully how you vote next time. Even better, get off your ass America and vote.
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| froghunter |
Posted: 2006/3/28 15:09 Updated: 2006/3/28 15:09 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/28 From: Australia Posts: 2 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System and Newbie...............Get a life (and a name)
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| MrCharon |
Posted: 2006/3/28 15:10 Updated: 2006/3/28 17:16 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/28 From: Posts: 8 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Now he is upset with all the emails he is getting from CentOS users. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/03/27/tuttle_email/So much for not being afraid of the media. Rather than email Jerry Taylor, I recommend everyone contact Media outlets and ask them to carry the story. |
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| dryicezero |
Posted: 2006/3/28 17:23 Updated: 2006/3/28 17:24 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/28 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System For all those that want to see Mr. Taylor's page before his "editing" ... here it is! [URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img358.imageshack.us/img358/4190/tuttle7gl.jpg[/IMG][/URL] [URL=http://img358.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tuttle7gl.jpg][IMG]http://img358.imageshack.us/img358/4190/tuttle7gl.th.jpg[/IMG][/URL] |
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| jrcovert |
Posted: 2006/3/28 21:25 Updated: 2006/3/28 21:25 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/26 From: Posts: 3 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System There's a lot of shooting from the hip going on in the commentary about this. Many of you are showing yourselves to be almost as confused as the beleaguered city manager. As I pointed out in an earlier reply, there really appears to be no evidence that www.cityoftuttle.org ever had any content, or that it was ever intended to be the city's website. The city's real website is at www.tuttle-ok.gov and is hosted not on a CentOS machine, but on a Windoze box. The Register, not known for particularly accurate reporting, has written that "Taylor went to Tuttle city's web site, hoping to make some changes." (cf http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/03/27/tuttle_email/ ). There's no evidence to support that statement; it appears to be pure fabrication. Johnny Hughes at CentOS was on the right track when he discovered the real site, but the use of cityoftuttle.org for email apparently put him off the scent. City Manager Jerry Taylor's message that said "I have contacted the City's network administrator wnd he has done nothing to install your CentOS software," and "I have contacted our Internet provider and they know nothing about your software" might have given Johnny a bit of a hint that Jerry was contacting someone other than the folks running www.cityoftuttle.org -- and when Jerry claimed that he was going to tuttle-ok.gov and getting the page from four computers, but that there was no problem from others, the real problem should have been easier to find. I suspect those four computers had somehow been set up with incorrect bookmarks or incorrect browser start pages. Or, as I suggested earlier, Vidiacom (who were responsible for www.cityoftuttle.org -- unbeknownst to the City Manager, who had been dealing with the folks at avenet.net for the real website tuttle-ok.gov ) might have been referring connections from the .org to the .gov site and might have lost that referral in a disk crash. If that was the case, these bookmarks/start pages might have once worked just fine. The situation is getting worse before getting better, it seems. Vidiacom has now pulled all info for cityoftuttle.org, including the MX records handling email, from their nameservers. Maybe the City is in contact with the registrar to wrest the domain from Vidiacom, the current registrant, or maybe Vidiacom just noticed that the City had terminated the contract with them as an internet provider (while still using cityoftuttle.org rather than tuttle-ok.gov email addresses). IMHO, the person who really should have stepped in and solved this problem before Jerry made himself infamous would be the unknown "network administrator" who first told Jerry that "he had done nothing." Jerry may come out of this ok, and the netadmin might end up being the fall guy (and possibly a deserving fall guy) for making his boss look bad. /john |
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| hughesjr |
Posted: 2006/3/28 23:16 Updated: 2006/3/29 0:32 |
WebMaster Joined: 2004/12/5 From: Corpus Christi, Texas, USA Posts: 401 Online! |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System This seems to be the real problem. They had in the past moved their website ... the old site was cityoftuttle.org ... the new site was tuttle-ok.gov. However the name lookups on the computers in question were returning the ipaddress for cityoftuttle.org for tuttle-ok.gov.
So, the page was opening and showing a centos.org default page for tuttle-ok.gov.
Very simple problem that should have taken someone using nslookup about 5 minutes to figure out, if they knew that the city had changed sites, or if they did an nslookup from the machines in question and compared them to machines that worked.
The real issue here is not the technical aspects of the problem ... they were simple, and would have been simpler still if information had been provided.
The issue is the assignment of blame after several attempts to explain that the senerio being accused was impossible.
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| Hillard |
Posted: 2006/3/29 6:03 Updated: 2006/3/29 6:15 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/29 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Mr. Hughes may I first say I think you handled this well. It seems to me that your are trying to defend yourself or feel you have to explain this further. You don't have to. You are not the "bad guy" of this seemingly ignorant exchange by this city official. Anybody with common sense who is reading this whole ordeal can figure out where you stand, and how far you went above and beyond the call of duty. Mr. Taylor has shown his true colors to this unfortunate city, and thanks to you, they get to have this valuable information free of charge because of your forum here. If I were this city I would have this fellow investigated. What he claims his experience was, just does not add up to his actions. I believe Mr.Taylor is not what he claims to be. I suspect he is capable of even falsifing documents. His actions don't pass the "stinks test" if you know what I mean. As for what Pravn has stated, that you could have ". . .handled this better and may have lost a customer", is ignorant in it's own right. Some people you just don't want as a customer because they will cost you more trying to satisfy them, which you have no hope of doing anyway. Again his actions show this to be true. You would be better off to not have him around. Most likely anybody who knows this guy probably knows he is a moron and would know not to listen to him. The sad thing is human nature tells us to tell 10 people about our negative experiencies and maybe 1 person about our positives. The "poor me" effect as you may say. I can only imagine what was going on in your life when this hit your inbox. I'd say this probably ended your good day or your good morning coffee when you had no responsibilty to this guy and his issues right from the start. Anyway it's late. I thank you for your time and entertainment. Hopefully this city will have this guy investigated or maybe even call the F.B.I. to see if he pans out. |
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| Kaboosh |
Posted: 2006/3/29 7:40 Updated: 2006/3/29 7:43 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/29 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Judging from the abusive emails sent by this "official", the City's IT Administrator may have simply been afraid to investigate the problem and immediately denied any knowledge about it (as a reflex reaction to avoid being physically/verbally assaulted during his next visit to the office).
I have few doubts in my mind that this person's appointment is not the result of corruption or what I like to call "Political Inbreeding" :-(
My 2-cents -> I live in a town of 4K residents and although we don't have dedicated IT staff for the town hall our town officials are polite/resourceful enough to find the IT help they need.
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| discontent |
Posted: 2006/3/28 21:44 Updated: 2006/3/28 21:44 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/28 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Personally I do not believe that Johnny did not do anything wrong. I am not a lawyer but I believe that Jerry Taylor was very much in the wrong for threatening to go to the FBI. Jerry Tayler, especially as a public servant, has an obligation , (and if I am not mistaken a LEGAL obligation) to report stuff like this. He honestly believed his cities government websites had been hacked. What does the fact that he did not report it say about Jerry Taylor and his ethics? Does he belong in public office? I wonder if the local FBI office is not now investigating whatever else he is not reporting? lol...
Johnny, you are a better man than I. Thank you for the entertainment! You are a man of incredible patience...
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| MrCharon |
Posted: 2006/3/28 23:17 Updated: 2006/3/28 23:35 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/28 From: Posts: 8 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System The Code of Ethics of the International City Managers Association (ICMA), that Mr. Taylor clams to be a member of. http://www.icma.org/main/bc.asp?bcid=40&hsid=1&ssid1=17&ssid2=24I wonder if they know by shutting down cityoftuttle.org domain they not only shut off Taylor's email, but the mayor was also using that domain. |
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| RyanC |
Posted: 2006/3/29 5:46 Updated: 2006/3/29 5:48 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/29 From: Posts: 2 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System In reply to the few people being critical of CentOS for posting this email exchange:
Perhaps some people would prefer to remain in the dark when information about how incompetent their government officials are is presented to the public. I simply cannot agree with that though. Not disclosing such information goes against everything I've ever been taught about democracy and the idea of 'being informed'. Personally, I want to know when the people who represent me, be it federally or locally, are incompetent and (overly-)reactionary in such a flagrant manner. I want someone to speak up when an 'official' lacks the knowledge and professionalism most people expect from their 'official' positions. I'd want to know how they represent me, and especially how they do not. Anyone who feels differently, well, then you deserve whatever 'Tuttle' passes him/herself off as representative of you and your city and the decisions they make which will, in all likelyhood, affect you at some point or another.
As for me, I'd just like to say thank you for holding this govermment official accountable for his actions and for trying to keep us (or more importantly, anyone in Tuttle who might actually care) informed.
Ryan
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| foobar47 |
Posted: 2006/3/29 8:13 Updated: 2006/3/29 8:13 |
Peeking in the Member Window Joined: 2005/6/22 From: Posts: 17 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Yeah, it is a very funny storie... I really appreciate it !!! |
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| C64_Hacker |
Posted: 2006/3/29 11:14 Updated: 2006/3/29 11:14 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/25 From: Posts: 4 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Wow. You guys just don't get it yet do you. Go ahead and laugh at the guy. This is why nerds are relegated to back rooms and away from any real business choices. You just don't get it.
Let me explain something about politics to you. This would NEVER happen in a commercial enterprise. Any politician who sees this would never use open-source because it opens them up to the risk of public ridicule if they happen to do something stupid. Why should they take the risk? They can come up with a thousand reasons why they should use Microsoft instead, and the public will mostly agree except for the handfull of backroom nerds that nobody gives a shit about.
Go ahead and laugh at stupid end user... (ha ha, he don't know wha an OS is!). Good job. Meanwhile everyone else is laughing at the credibility of this open-source bullshit. People don't think what is the best for the people, they worry about covering their own asses. Why the hell would I ever want to put myself at risk of humiliation when I can get somebody else to pay for a commercial package from a company who knows how to keep their mouth fucking shut.
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| hughesjr |
Posted: 2006/3/29 12:16 Updated: 2006/3/29 12:30 |
WebMaster Joined: 2004/12/5 From: Corpus Christi, Texas, USA Posts: 401 Online! |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System That is quite alright ... we don't sell CentOS to make a profit.
So, we don't have to kiss the A-- of rude people to pay our bills.
Bottom line, if you want help from CentOS (at least from me), then you will need to be polite.
If you are not, I will welcome you to NOT use our product ... at least you certainly won't get any help.
OH, and don't dare me to send the e-mail transcripts to the media either.
There is a method to ASK for help. Some people are so used to screaming until the problem stops that sometimes they need a reality check. The technical aspects of this e-mail exchange are not the problem.
------------------
WRT to your absolutely foul langague ... try to control yourself.
-----------------
WRT your analysis of the death of open source ... IBM, Novell, Sun, RedHat don't seem to have a problem making money.
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| pravn |
Posted: 2006/3/29 17:00 Updated: 2006/3/29 17:00 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/25 From: Posts: 7 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System "WRT your analysis of the death of open source ... IBM, Novell, Sun, RedHat don't seem to have a problem making money." D'you suppose that has something to do with the quality of their customer service? Have a look, for instance, at the Red Hat support testimonial page ( http://www.redhat.com/support/offerings/testimony/): "Our TAM [Technical Account Management] was a valuable resource for us as problems came up, even if the problems weren't totally Linux-focused." "I'm pleased to announce the Apache issue is resolved, thanks for assistance." "RHEL3.0 has worked very well, and the support was great - it made my first experience with Linux a good one - I'm now committed to Linux..." |
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| hughesjr |
Posted: 2006/3/29 18:55 Updated: 2006/3/29 18:58 |
WebMaster Joined: 2004/12/5 From: Corpus Christi, Texas, USA Posts: 401 Online! |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Maybe you should look at the satisfied customers that centos has. Take a look at the nearly 200 people in our IRC channel at all times, or the 100,000 webservers we have on the internet ... or maybe 85,000 unique IP addresses that update against our servers weekly ... or maybe the 2500 people on our mailing lists. The person in question was not a CentOS customer at all. He had never installed our software, he also did not have a service contract with us. CentOS was under no obligation to provide help to him in any way. Instead of ASKING for help, he accused us of committing a felony and threatened to call the FBI and DEMANDED help. CentOS has no issue helping our CUSTOMERS who ASK. Maybe you don't know that CentOS is the 8th largest Linux distro in terms of webservers on the internet. Maybe you are not aware that we are in use at Sun and included in their BrandZ for opensolaris. Maybe you haven't seen this IBM Presentation. You might not know that serveral companies including at&t use CentOS. You might also not know that several groups base their software on CentOS. Yep, our customer relations are terrible, nobody uses this crappy distro  |
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| pravn |
Posted: 2006/3/29 19:41 Updated: 2006/3/29 19:41 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/25 From: Posts: 7 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System "Maybe you should look at the satisfied customers that centos has. Take a look at the nearly 200 people in our IRC channel at all times, or the 100,000 webservers we have on the internet ... or maybe 85,000 unique IP addresses that update against our servers weekly ... or maybe the 2500 people on our mailing lists."
And the numbers for IBM, Novell, Sun, and RedHat are?
"Maybe you don't know that CentOS is the 8th largest Linux distro in terms of webservers on the internet."
And the rankings for IBM, Novell, Sun, and RedHat are?
"You might not know that serveral companies including at&t use CentOS."
And the numbers for IBM, Novell, Sun, and RedHat are?
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| MrCharon |
Posted: 2006/3/29 21:50 Updated: 2006/3/29 21:50 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/28 From: Posts: 8 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System You can't judge CentOS's support quality and compare it to others based on this case, as the city of Tuttle is not a customers of CentOS and does not have a support contract. As a matter of fact the system in question, that was running CentOS did not even belong to the city and was not under there control, nor was it the responsibility of CentOS's to support it.
IBM, Novell, Sun and RedHat all offer excellent support, but you pay for that support. The more you pay the better the support. Had Mr. Taylor called up any of them, the most support he would have gotten from them would have been to tell him to call up his web host provider. They would have not wasted the time to determine for him who that is was. They would have also not put up with Mr. Taylors demands and threats. All support centers have polices for dealing with unmanageable customers, which includes politely hanging up on them. Mr. Taylor would have been such a customer.
You are welcome to call them up and try for your self.
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| MJACHICAGO |
Posted: 2006/4/6 6:42 Updated: 2006/4/6 6:42 |
Peeking in the Member Window Joined: 2006/4/6 From: Posts: 14 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System pravn is obviously a M$ or SCO shill singing their old FUD song. We use OpenSource extensively in concert with IBM - we've saved millions over M$ and SCO solutions.
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| pam608 |
Posted: 2006/3/30 4:38 Updated: 2006/3/30 4:38 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/30 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Hi Johnny,
As a former resident of Tuttle, I was highly entertained by all of this! Thank you for sharing!! You're my new hero.
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| RyanC |
Posted: 2006/3/29 13:49 Updated: 2006/3/29 13:49 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/29 From: Posts: 2 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Ahhhh the joys (or would it be perils?) of actually having to take responsibility for one's actions!
The ability for people to pay someone to be obligated to shield them from the consequences of their own ignorance is a historical fact of life. Which is why most 'wise' people understand and accept the limits of their intellect and hire someone who has a clue before things like this happen.
All the 'nerds' I know are trusted more for business decisions related to this area precisely because they avoid blindly jumping headfirst into situations like this in the first place.
If someone sees this and finds that 'Cool, I can be an over-reactive, incompetent, and belligerent person anytime I want and not have to worry about the consequences!' is worth more to them than every other more important advantage that open source software offers... well, they most certainly deserve to pay for that privledge... and all the exploitable-for-weeks Microsoftisms that come with it.
Moral of the story? Look before you leap, think before you speak, and be careful what you ask for... if you're deserving enough, you just might get it.
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| dinofond |
Posted: 2006/3/29 15:25 Updated: 2006/3/29 15:25 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/29 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Jerry, I think you showed great restraint and professionalism in dealing with this id10t! Had I been the Dev he contacted he would not have been greeted with such patients and understanding. However, after reading all of this hopefully I will be as decent of a professional as you are when dealing with the next screaming pathological buffoon I come in contact with. 22 years in IT my arse! I give you kudos for making the contributors to open source look good to John Q. Public no mater how large one may register on the moron scale.
Thanks Jerry.
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| micc |
Posted: 2006/4/11 8:15 Updated: 2006/4/11 8:16 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/4/11 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System I agree with C64_Hacker, this kind of publicity hurts open source in the public and business sector. Sure, posting the email correspondance to www will make the readers of slashdot and register chuckle, but is it really worth it?
Taylor acted like an idiot and I dont want to defend his actions, but in my opinion this episode would have been best avoided.
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| UnixAdmin |
Posted: 2006/3/29 18:48 Updated: 2006/3/29 18:48 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/25 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System I live in Oklahoma and they had this post on our evening news. I am sick. The mayor of Tuttle was on TV last night and he was blaming it on the city manager who, from the picture they put one the screen, looks like he is in his early 70's. The city manager would not appear on camera. I have nothing against older admits, but there is not a lot of continuing education here. Their are a few of us in Oklahoma that are raving mad about this situation because this is basic information that even a horrible administrator would know. I am just making this post so that people know that not everyone in Oklahoma is an idiot!
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| ID_SysAdmin |
Posted: 2006/3/29 22:59 Updated: 2006/3/29 22:59 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/29 From: Posts: 4 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System UnixAdmin, I spent a few years in Oklahoma myself, and I can't say that I don't feel a little bit sorry for the folks in Tuttle. As for Mr. Taylor, he is the man who proclaimed to the world "I have no fear of the media, in fact I welcome this publicity," so I guess he got what's coming to him.
Maybe if Mr. Taylor were sit down in front of the media he's so fond of and eat a big ol' slice of humble pie, things might be a little different. A public apology to the Linux community--starting with Johnny Hughes--would carry a lot of weight right about now.
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| MrCharon |
Posted: 2006/3/30 5:52 Updated: 2006/3/30 5:52 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/28 From: Posts: 8 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System |
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| void |
Posted: 2006/3/30 2:03 Updated: 2006/3/30 2:03 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/29 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System To the people who are still defending this idiot and don't accept the fact that he was treated a lot better than he deserved (from his email to el reg) :
"I only got help after threatening to contact the FBI."
Maybe you guys should seriously consider watching the movie "Dogville".
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| unixdude |
Posted: 2006/3/30 2:58 Updated: 2006/3/30 2:58 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/28 From: Edmond, OK Posts: 4 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System I couldn't resist following wgadmin's lead. Here's my email to mayor@cityoftuttle.org with a cc to citymgr@cityoftuttle.org . . . . . Quote: So far I've gotten one "TEMP_FAILURE: Probe failed: Server Too Busy" attributed to the citymgr@cityoftuttle.org address. No word yet from the Mayor. Chief Wiggum unavailable for comment.  |
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| alucard13 |
Posted: 2006/3/30 12:57 Updated: 2006/3/30 12:57 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/30 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Johnny is a very patient man. I think i would have flown over and smacked someone. Sounds a lot like my users.
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| luser13 |
Posted: 2006/3/30 16:18 Updated: 2006/3/30 16:18 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/30 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Of course CentOS *did* receive a bit of publicity because of this... well deserved IMHO even in the slight possibility that it might have been - to some extent - (cough cough) seen coming.
C64 made good points, but since OSS *is* increasingly used, my explanation is that the people who decide on things like OS selection, either have an increasing "nerd"-ness themselves, or take under increasingly serious consideration the suggestions of "nerds". And the esteem of CentOS and OSS in general (in the eyes of such people) was perceivably increased because of this publicity. Where it hasn't, it's true that some may resort to M$-based solutions or similar, but some will understand the need for hiring (or at least consulting) a "nerd" to manage their IT rather than the Mr. Taylors of this world.
keep up the good work
L
PS feel free to replace the term "nerd" above with: technocrat, techie, geek, cyberfreak, ultra-wise demigod, person who doesn't have to use a mouse to delete files, person with very high ratio of (solving_other_peoples_problems / causing_problems_to_other_people), etc. etc.
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| Preglerjr |
Posted: 2006/3/30 16:12 Updated: 2006/3/30 16:12 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/30 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System I just want to say for the rest of us Oklahoman's that are computer literate, please don't hold us to the intelligence of this city manager. It is embarrassing enough to live in a state where every national media coverage is over very stupid and ridiculous things. I am still not surprised that people think we still ride horses and have model "T" cars in operation. Thanks to Jerry, we can chalk up one more moron to our states name! Jonathan Pregler Mustang, Ok jonathan@weftnet.com |
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| agnustic |
Posted: 2006/4/3 16:20 Updated: 2006/4/3 16:20 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/4/3 From: Portales, New Mexico Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Okay. Allow me to qualify. My mother was born in Olkmulgee. My wife's huge group of kin and relatives live soutwest of OK City. I have branch of the my family in Kingsfisher. Darn near every person I've met in Oklahoma are down-to-earth great people - seriously. That being said ...
Who let this city manager out on the cement highways of I-40? Shaken CIty Manager Syndrome?
Not to worry. If you look at a map of the City of Portales you will see the city was built off the design of the railroad and then someone got an idea of using a compass for obtaining north on a map. We also have winners working for the community and making huge money for their wisdom.
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| cipher_strings |
Posted: 2006/3/30 16:45 Updated: 2006/3/30 16:45 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/30 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Thanks Jerry, I got headache after 5 hour install and configure my new linux and your mail can make me laugh for 2 hour |
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| ID_SysAdmin |
Posted: 2006/3/30 22:31 Updated: 2006/3/31 3:36 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/29 From: Posts: 4 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Here's a quote from the NewsOK article listed in the post above. It should give you an idea of JT's mindset: Quote: Taylor said he had no regrets about his attack-dog mode against the CentOs organization.
"I was frustrated because I couldn't get any help," he said. "The guy kept telling me to get an IT person. I don't know how to break this loop without threatening him with the FBI because this is not getting anywhere." It's been awhile since I last read How To Win Friends And Influence People, but I don't recall Dale Carnegie mentioning anything about gaining a person's support by threatening him with a visit from the FBI . . . a bully might do that, though. Here's the latest Register article, as well: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/03/30/tuttle_fbi_pledge/There is one thing in the article that I do *NOT* agree with, though. I contacted Jim Stafford at NewsOK, and he provided me with this insight: Quote: Thanks for you note. I think I know he was trying to refer to The
Register, but he actually said "registry," which also could be someone's
low-tech reference to an Internet message board. So, I just left it with
his comments. My story tried to give some flavor of the exchange and the
so-called attack dog approach that Mr. Taylor took within the space I
was allotted.
Thanks again.
Jim IMHO The Register was out of line for publishing Mr. Stafford's e-mail address and then inciting people to waste the man's time by asking him where the "registry" can be located. Personally, I thought the guy had a lot of class because he was polite enough to answer my e-mail with an explanation. |
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| MrCharon |
Posted: 2006/3/31 0:48 Updated: 2006/3/31 0:48 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/28 From: Posts: 8 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System I agree, they should not have posted his email in such a manner. If people want to email him, they can look up his address on the website just like everyone (including me). I hope my post here to the orginal NewsOK article is not want lead The Register to his article. If it did, my applogies to Mr. Stafford.
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| hughesjr |
Posted: 2006/3/31 10:08 Updated: 2006/3/31 10:09 |
WebMaster Joined: 2004/12/5 From: Corpus Christi, Texas, USA Posts: 401 Online! |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Well ... it was a quote from Mr. Taylor that said the registry and not the register.
Mr. Stafford didn't have anything to do with the quote (other than printing it) ... at least that I could tell.
I guess it is possible that Mr. Taylor said "The Register" and was misquoted, but based on my first hand knowledge of the people involved, if I needed to give someone the benefit of the doubt, it certainly would be Mr. Stafford.
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| IllegalOperatio |
Posted: 2006/3/31 2:52 Updated: 2006/3/31 2:52 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/31 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System I for one am glad to see this man's rudeness and stupidity put on public display. He's not just an end user and he wasn't just asking for help. He's a public servant who is being paid by the public to do a job that he is obviously not capable of doing. If I was helping to pay this fool's salary, I would certainlyy want to know about this. Also, I'm assuming that these emails were sent from his city computer, which would make them a matter of public record anyway.
I can forgive him being so technologically ignorant that he doesn't understand the most basic concepts of the net and servers and doesn't seem to even know what an OS is. I find it much harder to overlook the fact that instead of finding someone who knows their ass from a hard drive, he instead chose to throw a temper tantrum and insist that someone else fix his problem for him. Never mind that the person he thought should fix it, was in no way repsonsible for the problem in the first place.
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| ID_SysAdmin |
Posted: 2006/3/31 18:45 Updated: 2006/3/31 18:54 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/29 From: Posts: 4 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System I was going to "let sleeping dogs lie," but this deserves to be posted. When the Oklahoma State University Daily O'Collegian interviewed Jerry Taylor, he made these comments: Quote: Taylor was very surprised by the response from the Linux community over the issue, and after he figured out the problem he said it wasn’t that big of a deal.
“It was an honest mistake,” Taylor said. “Had I gotten the correct information to start with, it wouldn’t have been blown all out of proportion.” That was followed by this: Quote:
When thinking about changes to the security of the Tuttle site in the future, Taylor said.
“I don’t really know how you’d do that.”
I rest my case . . . http://www.ocolly.com/read_story.php?a_id=29699 |
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| MrCharon |
Posted: 2006/3/31 21:09 Updated: 2006/3/31 21:10 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/28 From: Posts: 8 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Funny how each time he talks to the media his attuited changes. Still sounds like he is still trying to blame CentOS.
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| unixdude |
Posted: 2006/3/31 23:14 Updated: 2006/3/31 23:14 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/28 From: Edmond, OK Posts: 4 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Quote: When thinking about changes to the security of the Tuttle site in the future, Taylor said,
“I don’t really know how you’d do that.” I've got an idea! Start by removing any and all involvement Jerry Taylor might have with Tuttle's web presence. I'm tellin' ya, you just can't make this stuff up. He was apparently promoted to his level of incompetence years ago at E-Systems. He should have stayed there. |
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| gnuisnotunix |
Posted: 2006/4/1 9:40 Updated: 2006/4/1 9:40 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/4/1 From: Posts: 2 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System “It was an honest mistake,”
If it was an honest mistake... hasn't anyone taught this guy to say "I'm sorry" when he makes a mistake?
“Had I gotten the correct information to start with, it wouldn’t have been blown all out of proportion.”
Mr Hughes didnt have the obligation to provide any kind of information. He could have just replied RTFM!
This guy should be thankful for having received support from someone who didnt have any obligation to provide it.
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| MJACHICAGO |
Posted: 2006/4/6 6:53 Updated: 2006/4/6 6:53 |
Peeking in the Member Window Joined: 2006/4/6 From: Posts: 14 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System He was probably in the same Life Skills class as George Bush. They probably both skipped the day they covered "How to admit mistakes and take corrective action."
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| somedude |
Posted: 2006/4/1 14:23 Updated: 2006/4/2 0:27 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/4/1 From: Posts: 6 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Still clueless.... Once this excellent article from the local press was posted, not only was Jerry's link to his email excised, the chopping continued and the former link to the Tuttle Times under the "News" menu was removed from the City's website. Now, I'm sure it was some evil Haxors or "freaks", certainly not the dim government functionaries who still don't get it -- i.e., that retribution on others for your own stupidity is just not a good way to go through life. http://www.tuttletimes.com/local/local_story_088201244.htmlQuote:
Jerry Taylor eventually removed his own e-mail link from the web site to stop the continual flow of correspondence from people around the world.
Taylor said that he didn’t understand why so many people were concerned about an e-mail exchange between two people.
“This is just a bunch of freaks out there that don’t have anything better to do,” he said. “When I came in to work Monday morning, I had about 500 e-mails, plus anonymous phone calls from all the geeks out there. [CentOS is] a free operating system that this guy gives away, which tells you how much time he’s got on his hands.”
Taylor said that the mistake could have happened to anyone, and he stands by what he did.
(Bold was added for emphasis) Please, please, please -- just read the most recent quotes from Mr. Taylor, these being uttered AFTER the sturm und drang, and consider what the implications are for the poor folks in Tuttle. This is a man with BOTH serious comprehension and also proper use of power problems. Imagine confronting him on some local issue where it is not public, and he has the upper hand... there is a lot of hyperbole out on the WWW, but I say without fear of overstatement that he is a symbol of everything wrong with government -- a sense of entitlement by those in it, lack of qualifications, lack of understanding of our Constitutional form of limited government vis limits of power, not squashing free speech, etc. Note the reaction to the article in the Tuttle Times -- REMOVE THE NEWS LINK FROM THE SITE, OF COURSE!!!! Evil free press! How would you like to be that local reporter and run into Jerry in line at the Piggly Wiggly store next Tuesday? Or need a zoning decision from his crony commision? Disgusting. I'll bet "Pelican Brief" isn't Jerry's favorite movie. More like "Dukes of Hazard", I would wager. |
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| hughesjr |
Posted: 2006/4/1 15:01 Updated: 2006/4/1 15:01 |
WebMaster Joined: 2004/12/5 From: Corpus Christi, Texas, USA Posts: 401 Online! |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Just for the record, here is a letter that I sent to the tuttle times about their story (please don't be negative to them, they are just publishing their interview ): Quote:
Greetings,
I just read your story concerning the exchange between me and Mr.
Taylor.
I would like to point out some things.
1. CentOS had no relationship with Mr. Taylor or the city of Tuttle,
nor did we have any obligation to solve a totally local problem
concerning name lookup and name resolution that had nothing to do with
our operating system or the CentOS Project.
2. Mr. Taylor did not ask for help, he demanded it. That MIGHT have
been fine if he were a paying customer, but he was not. I have been in
the computer service industry for many years and I have never had
someone be as rude or demanding as Mr. Taylor, even if they were paying
for the help.
3. Had Mr. Taylor asked for help and not accused the CentOS Project of
a felony (breaking into his website and installing software), I would
have gladly helped him. Mr. Taylor obtained help IN SPITE OF his
outrageous comments ... not BECAUSE of them. Mr Taylor did not provide
the name of his current provider nor his previous provider, he also did
not provide the previous web address or explain that they had shifted
providers. All these things I had to figure out on my own to help him.
All he provided was rude accusations and threats of the FBI.
4. This issue was clearly a name server issue, in that the IP address
for www.cityoftuttle.org was being returned for www.tuttle-ok.gov. It
should have taken 5 seconds to do:
nslookup www.cityoftuttle.org
nslookup www.tuttle-ok.gov
(on both an affected and non-affected machine)
The resulting IP addresses would have easily shown the problem in less
than a minute. Then looking at what DNS servers the two local machines
were using would have told you, in less than 5 minutes exactly what the
problem was and how to fix it.
As an outside person, I had no access to any of this. I also had no
information to be able to solve this problem. Any person with any
network experience should have been able to solve this simple
problem ... which had nothing to do with the operating system on any of
the computers involved.
5. Mr. Taylor says:
"[CentOS is] a free operating system that this guy gives away, which
tells you how much time he’s got on his hands."
This shows a total misunderstanding of Open Source software and CentOS.
Here are some points about open source software.
1. There are millions of people all over the world using Open Source
software as their operating system (Linux and BSD are both open source).
Some names of open source software include Fedora Core, Ubuntu, SuSE,
CentOS, Red Hat Enterprise Linux, Debian, Gentoo, KNOPPIX, Mandriva,
Slackware, FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD ... just to name a few. The
people who produce these products make a quality operating system. It's
not because "they have too much time on their hands", it's just that
they have chosen a different business model and copyright method. In
the 21st century, Mr. Taylor's outdated view of Open Source software is
unbelievable.
2. Apache, a open source (and free) webserver that runs on both Linux
and MS Windows, hosts about 75% of all the websites on the Internet. In
fact, the Tuttle Times is hosted on Apache and a version of Linux. So
is Google, Yahoo.
3. CentOS is designed to be used in the enterprise. It is maintained
by 11 developers from all over the world:
http://www.centos.org/modules/tinycontent/index.php?id=2
CentOS is the 8th largest Linux operating system when ranked by web
servers installed on the Internet. CentOS has about 100,000 active web
servers online in a November Netcraft survey:
http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2005/12/05/strong_growth_for_debian.html
Web servers is only one aspect of what CentOS does, we are also used as
database servers, application servers, files servers, SMB servers, and
as a desktop operating system. Please see these article concerning what
can be done on CentOS:
http://www.linux-magazine.com/issue/65/Linux_Magazine_DVD_Inlay.pdf
http://www.linux-magazine.com/issue/65/CentOS_4.2.pdf
CentOS finished 2nd in the 2005 Linux Journal Readers' Choice Awards:
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8520
CentOS has 20 internal servers that we maintain (5 in the EU, 15 in the
US) just to distribute our updates to our external public mirrors which
are nearly 100 machines all over the world:
http://www.centos.org/modules/tinycontent/index.php?id=13
We have had more than 1 million unique machines that have done updates
against the CentOS update servers within the last year.
CentOS has between 70,000 and 100,000 unique machines that do updates
against our update servers every week. We serve about 30 Terabytes of
information from our 20 distribution servers per month, or about 1
Terabyte of information per day.
CentOS also has a website < http://www.centos.org >. Our website gets an
average of 20,000 unique visitors, serves 75,000 pages, has 618,477 hits
and sends 2.90 Gb of information DAILY. That has nothing to do with
distributing our updates, that is just our web traffic to the website.
There are many open source projects around the world that take centos
and build their product on top if it (with CentOS as their base):
http://www.centos.org/modules/news/index.php?storytopic=11
I just wanted you to understand that CentOS is not just a handful of
people and there are an estimated 350,000 active CentOS machines
currently all over the world.
Thanks,
Johnny Hughes
CentOS-4 Lead Developer
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| illoki |
Posted: 2006/4/1 17:47 Updated: 2006/4/1 17:50 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/28 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Johnny, well stated response. I've been following this all week and getting a laugh out of Jerrys attiude and well deserved thrashing on the net.. But then I thought about how this might look to the average point and click user, I mean, are we giving a bad impression here? The bullies going "Look at the fool with all the "experience" panicking over a an Apache boilerplate, haha!" So I called in some family members ('doze users of course, I'm weaning them off of it but it's taking more time than I'd like) that range from , "can't surf the net without a map) (his words) to, can set up her own email accounts and knows how to "install software without going crossed-eyed" (her words) to, can find her way around the guts when needed and has enough sense to not click that socially engineered spyware link (my assessment).. I first had them read the "offending page," which they all said they got the basic gist of, and then the email exchange and then answered any questions they had to clarify points. The result was, they all thought Johnny had gone beyond the call of duty to help someone that obviously had no sense and was rude to a fault and never actually apologized to Johnny. Admittedly this is a small, slightly biased and non scientific sample but I didn't have time for anything more elaborate. |
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| MrCharon |
Posted: 2006/4/2 10:22 Updated: 2006/4/2 18:07 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/28 From: Posts: 8 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System I want to know what he said when he called up GovOffice and Vidia Communications, as it seems they did not even bother to look into the problem for them selves.
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| unixdude |
Posted: 2006/4/2 17:07 Updated: 2006/4/2 17:07 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/28 From: Edmond, OK Posts: 4 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Oh. My. God. Quote: Mayor Paxton said that the city manager knows a lot more about computers than he does, and he trusts Taylor. Citizens of Tuttle, in the name of sanity and for your own safety, fire both of these boobs immediately. I would be amazed if either one of these dolts can tie lace-up shoes or do long division. They sure as heck shouldn't be running your city. |
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| centfan |
Posted: 2006/4/3 3:49 Updated: 2006/4/3 3:49 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/4/3 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System City workers must be that ignorant everwhere. I designed the city website in my town and received constant complaints about slow loading and popup problems for over a year, until I was notified that they were firing me as their webmaster. This is after going down there and cleaning all of the spyware adware and virii of of their (already slow) computers several times which was the actual cause of the slow loading and popups. When they told me I was fired I told them I actually own the domain name so firing me would be quite a hairy ordeal. They decided not to fire me.
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| d3xt3r |
Posted: 2006/4/3 15:47 Updated: 2006/4/3 15:47 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/4/3 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System tell you what, it's only when you see the guy it all fits into place.. He's an old dude who's way out of his depth! Presenting, City Manager, Jerry A. Taylor  |
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| MJACHICAGO |
Posted: 2006/4/6 3:53 Updated: 2006/4/6 3:53 |
Peeking in the Member Window Joined: 2006/4/6 From: Posts: 14 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Mr. Druker (the grocery owner) of The 1960s TV SHOW Green Acres comes to mind. Were they contemporaries? I bet Mr. Druker wouldn't be so rude.
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| MJACHICAGO |
Posted: 2006/4/6 7:05 Updated: 2006/4/6 7:05 |
Peeking in the Member Window Joined: 2006/4/6 From: Posts: 14 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Citizens of Tuttle - for the love of God, for your own self respect, save your town from this nightmare.
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| davioh |
Posted: 2006/4/3 21:51 Updated: 2006/4/3 21:51 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/4/3 From: Posts: 2 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System uh 22 years of experience huh? maybe this guy needs to goto college for a 4 year computer degree or get fired!
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| davioh |
Posted: 2006/4/3 22:10 Updated: 2006/4/3 22:10 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/4/3 From: Posts: 2 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System my original post got lost due to the fact that I was not registered. some thoughts on this matter:
#0. Mr. Taylors attitude and arrogance is astounding!
#1. Mr. Taylor is proof that 22 years of experience in anything can mean absolutely nothing!
#2. There are high school kids or college students who've taken 1 linux class that know much much more than this guy! would this guy even know how to use a command line?
#3. The next time I go on a job interview I think I can justify my recent 4 years of college education in cis as valuable compared to the mr. Taylor's of the world.
#4. Mr. Taylor seems to be a prime example of corruption that can permeate both corporations and governments, it ranks right up
there with enron and the radio shack ceo with the fake resume. Another example of someone seemingly bsing their way into a high ranking position and reaping the benefits without the proper credentials. These people seem to know nothing and do nothing, yet gain everything!
I could go on about this for ten pages but it would get repetitive. The bottom line is I hope this person gets what he deserves - fired!
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| Anti-Taylor |
Posted: 2006/4/4 14:49 Updated: 2006/4/4 14:49 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/4/4 From: Posts: 2 |
 Is imbreeding still prevalent worldwide? "Ostrich-footed" African tribe and Taylor clan considered suspect... Alright, so maybe not...
(Well, the tribe in Africa fessed up to it, at least)
But still... Look at him!
No, really what I wanted to comment on is the realization I've come to that it's almost a shame that the little hick-village of Tuttle is getting all this publicity... I mean, in one respect, it's a good thing: it brings awareness to large gatherings of peoples led by OTHER people who are so $!@)ed up, they have to wear protective head gear and floaties at all times to keep from seriously injuring themselves! On the other hand, it seems almost a travesty for the fact that, you just know there are some people out there (probably including Taylor himself) who are just thrilled at the publicity, the increase in daily hits on their little hick website, and the general increase in cashflow from all the publicity.
It's like the general media today, patting the idiot on the head and tossing him a cookie for being the idiot he is, regardless of the wrongs he's commited, so long as he's entertaining he will be rewarded.
E.G.:
“I was just frustrated,” he said. “I’ve got a strange website coming up, and I don’t know who caused it.” Taylor said that he also did not regret threatening Hughes with FBI action, since he believes that was what prompted Hughes to start treating him seriously.
“After that, he called me Mr. Taylor,” he said, “And he got me the information I needed.”
Moral:
"It doesn't matter what you do: THE END ALWAYS JUSTIFIES THE MEANS."
And again:
“He was not being that rude. He was protecting the city’s website,” Paxton continued. “You know, we have issues of water, we have issues with sewer, we have issues with roads. People here want better park facilities. They want a library. This Internet exchange doesn’t even make my top 10 list. As a city, we’re not going to spend a lot of time worrying about this.”
Moral:
"When you're busy, you can walk all over the 'little people' and partake in indulgent excuse for it, because you've got a lot on your plate."
And here I was under the impression that Hitler had died in 1945! Boy was I ever wrong, seeing as he's alive and well today, living and ruling in Tuttle, Oklahoma.
That's really all I had to say, it's not so much a conversation starter as it is sheer venting... I've dealt with countless people just like Jerry "The-NEW-Hitler" Taylor, and it frustrates me to no end that he can walk all over people, and feel justified in doing it. As though being a leader means you're entitled to be cruel. It seems to me that being in a position of leadership means you're taking on the responisibility of setting the example for everyone else. Not in cruelty and self-indulgent pride, but in humbleness, patience, wisdom and profound RESPECT for those you work with and lead.
In short, and IMHO Jerry owes Johnny, and (more importantly?) Tuttle an apology for being a bad example, and a terrible leader.
~The End ; )
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| ddrysdale |
Posted: 2006/4/4 18:49 Updated: 2006/4/4 18:52 |
Jr Board Member  Joined: 2005/5/14 From: New Brunswick Canada Posts: 43 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System The one big thing I se as a shame in all this is that he solved the problem in the manner he did. Quite frankly he could have called up Microsoft and with enough yelling someone would have did the nslookup jut to get rid of him. I have no respect for people who solve problems by being so unpleasant you just help them to make them go away. Yes he fixed the problem so in his mind he did nothing wrong. I assume his only regret is he wasn’t more forceful in the begging.
The fact is there are people out there who just work that way. I have worked with and for a few. They just yell and scream until someone does what they want just to get rid of them. It works for him.
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| MJACHICAGO |
Posted: 2006/4/6 3:44 Updated: 2006/4/6 3:47 |
Peeking in the Member Window Joined: 2006/4/6 From: Posts: 14 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System My wife told me about this today & I nearly fell off my chair reading the email exchange between Mr. Taylor and Johnny. The clincher for me was when Taylor invoked the Almighty FBI threat and then displayed nothing less that utter ineptness with his comment about having 22 some years experience in IT. Perhaps he did back in the 70s - hell, maybe he was even a cobol coder on punch cards. Obviously he has either been away from IT since the 80s or he fell into a mind timewarp that placed him back in the mainframe System 360 days. How did this guy get elected? Obviously not for his technical savvy. For being the City Manager, one would think he might have a clue who manages the city's computer systems to inquire with them to fix his problem. I've worked in IT for about 18 years, and as a member of the IT profession, would recommend Mr. Taylor’s membership be summarily revoked for just being a rude obnoxious idiot. Let those who know IT do the job and perhaps he should stick to 'managing'. I have a feeling a new set of phrases have entered the lexicon: "You've been Taylored", or "He went Taylor on me", or "He's being so Taylor". or "I think she’s having a Taylor moment."  |
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| Anti-Taylor |
Posted: 2006/4/6 7:19 Updated: 2006/4/6 7:19 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/4/4 From: Posts: 2 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Actually, the phrase chosen was " Tuttle" or " Tuttler" after the little town in which Taylor resides. You can Wiki or Google (which will then forward you to wiki-) the phrase to find it, or just follow the above links. These definitions will disappear within a month's time, unless people visit, and vote to accept them (or we wait for a year to lapse on these forum's posts, at which time they will be accepted automatically) - It's up to you guys to get these things commonly used, to spite the hick-town of Tuttle, and it's very special leader, Mr. Taylor. ^_^ |
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| MJACHICAGO |
Posted: 2006/4/7 2:20 Updated: 2006/4/7 2:20 |
Peeking in the Member Window Joined: 2006/4/6 From: Posts: 14 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System "Tuttle" and "Tuttler" by far better. I like it.
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| MJACHICAGO |
Posted: 2006/4/6 7:15 Updated: 2006/4/6 7:16 |
Peeking in the Member Window Joined: 2006/4/6 From: Posts: 14 |
City of Tuttle Website promotes Religion Why does the City of Tuttle's Official Government website have a link titled "First Assemblies of God Church Acitivities" which takes you to http://dsabase.com? See http://www.tuttle-ok.gov/index.asp?Type=B_LIST&SEC={38F08D7A-531B-4996-AEF2-9268E1559478}I was under the impression that Governments were not suppose to "Promote the establishment of religion". I guess in Tuttle, that doesn't apply. Why are there no links to Catholic, Episcopal, Jewish, and other sites? I guess the city of Tuttle prefers the First Assemblies of God over others. |
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| PerlGuy |
Posted: 2006/4/8 6:32 Updated: 2006/4/8 6:33 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/4/8 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System First off, Gidday from Canada (Yes, the snow is finally melting) Throwing my two cents in, here: Both my mother and grandmother always told me you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. One has to salute Johnny for both his patience and the fact that he ended up helping the manager with <cough> 22 years of IT experience <cough> Personally, I would have sat back and waited for the FBI to get in touch: *that* would have been amusing } > Me, I've put in hundreds and hundreds of hours of unpaid help with perl/CGI questions over the years, simply because a user asked *politely*. I'm glad to do it. Heck, I've received more than my fair share of help over in comp.lang.perl.misc by asking *politely* for help. Demands, rudeness, threats ? Any *real* IT person worth his or her salt should know that that's instant bozo-bin time. This was definitely a case of PEBKAC (Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair) |
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| lbaty |
Posted: 2006/4/9 2:22 Updated: 2006/4/9 2:22 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/4/9 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System My commendations go to Johnny on his patience and composure in dealing with a VERY difficult person.
Mr Taylor definitely needs to learn to do his research before so blatantly making accusations and threats.
Clearly the CentOS team provide a fantastic public service by offering their web-hosting OS free of charge.
I would really like to see 2 outcomes from this:
Jerry Taylor to personally call and apologise to Johnny for his rudeness and incompetence
Jerry Taylor personally or perhaps even the city of Tuttle make a donation to the CentOS project.
Regards a concerned internet citizen
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| somedude |
Posted: 2006/4/9 4:06 Updated: 2006/4/9 4:06 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/4/1 From: Posts: 6 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Anyone interested in latest hi-jinks from Jerry Taylor, do a search for "Jerry Taylor" on digg -- in an article to Muskogee paper, he is still giving wild quotes about OSS community at large (the word 'cult' is used in the article), and he apparently has a pretty spotty history of little diva tantrums just like with his recent threats to CentOS. This guy has sued or been let go from various places -- Hugo (sued them for $200,000), Harrah (resigned in a cloud), Chocktaw Electric gig ('mutual misunderstanding')... it is hard to believe this guy is still workin' for the guv'mint at Tuttle... (shaking head)
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| vin_mcp |
Posted: 2006/4/10 21:10 Updated: 2006/4/10 21:10 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/4/10 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System I think this was an excellent job of troubleshooting and resolution and a testament of the how the open source community works to solve problems. Reading the exchange brightened my day. Imagine, if you will, an exchange between Jerry and an off shore support desk though (if this had been some sort of outsourced operation)...I wonder if Jerry would have been calling in the CIA, SEALS, Green Berets and all the rest of the special ops types to get his problem resolved...
Way to go Johnny
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| Quantum |
Posted: 2006/4/11 8:49 Updated: 2006/4/11 8:49 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/4/11 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Johnny, you were far more kind than this guy deserved.
I would have set him a dos 6.2 boot disk and fdisk instructions.
It's guys like this that make shows like "Office Space" not funny.
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| gnuisnotunix |
Posted: 2006/4/15 12:16 Updated: 2006/4/15 12:16 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/4/1 From: Posts: 2 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System |
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| somedude |
Posted: 2006/4/15 12:25 Updated: 2006/4/15 12:25 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/4/1 From: Posts: 6 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Hmmm..... or is THIS the "real" Jerry Taylor....? "First, there was no server issue. The faltering forces of infidels cannot just log-in to a website of city hall and lay besiege to them! They are the ones who will find themselves under siege. Therefore, in reality whatever this miserable Johnny Hughes has been saying, he was talking about his own servers. Now even the entire Internet is under siege." "There is no CentOS operating software in Tuttle. Never!" "I blame the Open Source movement - they are marketing for the devil!" "God will roast their stomachs in hell at the hands of my city council." 'We have destroyed 2 servers, 3 web appliances, an Ipod,, 4 satanic BSD programmer and their keyboards. We have driven them back." "They're not even within 100 miles of Tuttle. They are not in any place. They hold no place in Oklahoma. This is an illusion ... they are trying to sell to the others an illusion." http://community.cnhi.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/249108922/m/865100032/r/827104932#827104932 |
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| somedude |
Posted: 2006/5/1 23:03 Updated: 2006/5/1 23:03 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/4/1 From: Posts: 6 |
Jerrynews: Why don't these mowers have gas in them? "According to Tuttle City Manager Jerry A. Taylor, the mowing season is beginning and the city is well equipped to handle city property. City residents are encouraged to keep their property mowed and clear of debris." http://www.tuttletimes.com/local/images_sizedimage_121130506/resources_photoviewI sure hope for the sake of the mower vendor that those dad-gummed machiness don't ever have a problem...if so, you can bet it's....Tuttle-time! "I've had 22 years of lawn maintenance field! GET THIS MOWER TO FUNCTION AS A ROTOTILLER OR ELSE I'LL CALL THE FBI" |
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| herko |
Posted: 2006/5/5 12:19 Updated: 2006/5/5 12:19 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/5/5 From: Posts: 1 |
Tuttle just gets weirder and weirder: publicity stunt and joke?? Hiya. I registered just to be able to post this here. My brother found a satirical blog on the web called Shelley the Republican ( http://www.shelleytherepublican.com/), where someone with the alias Tristan posted this message called ' Linux, a European threat to our computers' ( http://shelleytherepublican.com/2006/04/linux-european-threat-to-our-computers.html). Now, if we follow the link to Tristan Shuddery's blogger weblog (here: http://shuddery.blogspot.com/), you will find he's from.... Quote: Name:Tristan Shuddery
Location:Tuttle City, Oklahoma, United States
I am recently retired IT manager from Tuttle-City, Oklahoma. Now that I have retired, I can spend more time with my grand-children, plus devote my life to God, and America. Isn't that a big coincidence!? Now, this story has attracted a lot of news, but for this to be published on a known satirical website (just click on the 'meaning and purpose' link in the Shelley the Republican footer), what could this mean?? I find this intriguing Herko |
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| somedude |
Posted: 2006/5/14 15:34 Updated: 2006/5/14 15:34 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/4/1 From: Posts: 6 |
Re: Tuttle just gets weirder and weirder: publicity stunt... Well, reference to him may be found on a satirical site, but real life is stranger than fiction with old Jerry -- OMG -- Taylor is making technical decisions again! I sure hope no one in Grady County intends to get thirsty within the next few years...
"Basin Water quoted Tuttle with a price tag of $650,000. According to city manager Jerry A. Taylor, a reverse osmosis plan would cost more than $2 million.
“This is another option we’re looking at before any final decision is made,” Taylor said."
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| oldlinuxguy |
Posted: 2006/5/16 5:19 Updated: 2006/5/16 5:19 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/5/16 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: Tuttle just gets weirder and weirder: publicity stunt... Folks, you are so far into the argument that you cannot see some classic signs in the fellow.
And when you plan to be a world wide organizations..... if you REALLY want your stuff used by one and all.... you must actually get your head up and out of the code and look around at the human condition.....
Possibly Alzheimer's, possibly a diabetic and glucose levels off, possibly on some type of med that, for whatever reason, was at the particular point that this affected lucidity....
And anybody that comes back with a cheap shot about Alzheimer's will only corroborate what posters above have said about the "elitism" of a LOT of Linux folks....
And what was it that set all of this off? The attitude that .."Everybody knows THAT".....
Look..... please LOOK at the offending Page.....
The format is that of someone talking "down" to the reader.....
The format is broken into two parts, and the person who wrote it assumes that the reader is one of the "Everybody Knows THAT" people.... the writer ..... assumes that EVERYBODY is going to actually WADE THROUGH ALL THAT STUFF....
The part that has the actual relevant information is "down and off the screen".... the person has to "interact" with the screen... by mousing....
Anybody remember all the buzz a month of so ago about the risks of even "mousing" a picture that can have malware embedded in it? Is there ANY chance that this guy happened to be watching a talk show that was discussing it?
"Welll..... we can't be held respsible for that..."
No..... you can't...... but if you REALLY want Linux to "go to the people".....then you have to start doing whatever you can to deflect such situations...... all it takes is refomatting the page.... and restructuring the information.....
Instead of everyone patting themselves on the back about this guy being an idiot.....you are MISSING THE BIG POINT
The BIG POINT is that CentOS WAS BEING USED IN A BACKWATER TOWN IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE.....
This is supposedly what the Linux community WANTS....... as it was so aptly put elsewhere..."POWER TO THE PEEOOPLLEE!!!"...
Well..... those good 'ol boys down there on the prairie have got money, they just don't give it to 'big guvvmint" that's probably why there is no tax base to buy a Microsloth product... ...
Hmmmm kind of like the attitude of the "open source" people that 'big guvvmint, and Bad Micrsoslth"...is the ruination of the world....
Weeeeelllll .....
If CentOS is going to be a world wide operation..... and bring power to the people..... then they have to realize that they are not some "aloof ivory tower"..operation......
The "inteligentsia" sneer that all "information is neutral".... that "I merely deliver a service"...."It is your responsibility to use what I/we(must be politically correct here)... have provided....... our of our beneficence......."
Welllllll no matter what the ivory tower folks would LIKE to have happen......
CentOS has had an example shoved in their faces about what happens when their software ....... ACTUALLY DOES GET TO THE STAGE of interacting with a CROSS SECTION of people instead of the folks.....that...are...the "They know THAT"....types..
I would recommend that EVERY SINGLE LInux "whatever" that produces a piece of software that has the possiblity of interacting with people ANONYMOUSLY.... and in.....might we say..... an..... UNUSUAL situation..... immediatly REDO such a page to say this:
"DON'T PANIC"..... see... I'm a geek too.... I read them when they first came out...
Below that, instead of a page and a half of small type.......one might have... a FEW SENTENCES.... IN BIG BOLD TYPE..... EXPLAINING what has happened
AND NOT IN THAT ALOOF TONE that is always taken by the distros that are "pat yourselves on the back" distros. aren't we such good boys.... we put in our thumb and pulled out a distro.... ...
And........maybe instead of this just being a ".....sheesh look at that idiot"....bunch of posts.... this could actually HELP...... GET LINUX TO THE PEOPLE instead of driving "the great unwashed, sweaty farmers" AWAY...
PTTP
oldlinuxguy
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| hughesjr |
Posted: 2006/5/17 1:22 Updated: 2006/5/17 1:22 |
WebMaster Joined: 2004/12/5 From: Corpus Christi, Texas, USA Posts: 401 Online! |
Re: Tuttle just gets weirder and weirder: publicity stunt... OK ... here is the deal.
CentOS is in use by nearly a million people world wide ... it is the 8th largest linux distro as measured by active web servers on the internet.
People who ASK for help at CentOS get it, and our distribution is growing rapidly ... however, people who are rude and demanding will be sent packing.
That is just the way it is. If that means CentOS doesn't grow as fast as it otherwise would ... then so be it.
|
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| unixdude |
Posted: 2006/5/17 2:33 Updated: 2006/5/17 2:33 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/28 From: Edmond, OK Posts: 4 |
Re: Tuttle just gets weirder and weirder: publicity stunt... Buh, buh, buh, Johnny!? After reading oldlinuxguy's post, I thought we were just about to join hands and sing Kumbaya around the campfire.
Okay, just kidding.
I'm with you. Ask, and I will bend over backwards to help you. Demand, and all you'll get is "Suck It" on stderr.
Besides, I used to work with Jerry at E-Systems. Perhaps Tuttle should shell out $2M for the reverse osmosis facility. Then maybe Jerry could run his head through it and turn excrement into brains.
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| tdwalker |
Posted: 2006/6/4 1:04 Updated: 2006/6/4 1:14 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/4/22 From: Posts: 1 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Mr.Hughes I think you showed great restraint and professionalism in dealing with Mr. T
I would have replied to the FBI threat| Mr.T here is my phone number please have the agent call me, or I can help you with this problem, my service fee is $ 350.00 per hr. for no contract support services. Minimum 1hr.
Mr.T made an FBI threat; little did he know The FBI, those fine people (that have too many Mr.T types working for them) that gave us WACO and 911. After browsing the post’s on this topic I can only image the amount of man-hours spent by you and the Linux and Cent OS communities in reading and writing replies to this one topic, If the FBI could have used the same amount of real professional man-hours in doing there job we may not have had a WACO or 911. Forget the FBI don’t piss off the Linux community.
|
|
|
|
| Poster |
Thread |
| ID_SysAdmin |
Posted: 2007/5/24 21:44 Updated: 2007/5/24 21:59 |
Newbie Joined: 2006/3/29 From: Posts: 4 |
Re: It's L-i-n-u-x, that is an Operating System Oops - sorry 'bout that "free look" that's gonna cost Tuttle $170, 199 - Jerry "screws the pooch" once again. http://www.tuttletimes.com/local/local_story_124002709.htmlThe city of Tuttle gets a bill for $170, 199 - thanks to Jerry Taylor! The Tuttle Times reports that on the 4th of May the council went into executive session to discuss the city manager’s employment contract. |
|
|
|
|
|
